SDC Talk!
SDC Talk!
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Members | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Breed Discussion
 Purebreds
 Zero Lines - Siberian Huskies
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page | Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 6

Finnemarka

Norway
14 Posts

Posted - 04/25/2009 :  08:11:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
yes and registered purebred dog. For instance the first dog I used in a race was an Airdale, then I used Giant Schnauzers and from 1963 a Seppala Siberian. German Pointers were very popular amongst my mates. Very strong a nd fast running dogs.

Chris
Go to Top of Page

Finnemarka

Norway
14 Posts

Posted - 04/25/2009 :  08:14:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

I am sorry Johnn, I am not sure, but as far as I know we are talking about 2011 and not 2010.

Regards

Chris

quote:
Originally posted by SKIJOR#1

Chris, Please let us know when the WC web site is up for the 2010 races. Thanks. Johnn


Chris
Go to Top of Page

sallydawson

USA
787 Posts

Posted - 04/26/2009 :  8:53:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Chris/Finnemarka - PLEASE e-mail me privately about using an Airedale in your early team. I have raced a team of 6 airedales already, and hope to put all 8 of mine together in a team next winter. But I am always looking for interesting info about others who may have used one or more airedales in mushing. THanks!

Sally Dawson (and the Mushing'Dales)

Sally J. Dawson and the Mushing'dales
KA8UVQ; "RED HAT" Musher
Live each day as if it is your last
Go to Top of Page

2dogs

USA
37 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2009 :  12:32:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This talk of "Disney" dogs make me chuckle as my 2 of my sibes are black and white. Though one does have a deep red undercoat. 1 is pure white, 1 is brown and white, and 1 is red and brown. Though they are not "show", their parents with the exception of 1, are working dogs.

Jim D
Go to Top of Page

Finnemarka

Norway
14 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2009 :  05:16:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It is good that this theme has been laid dead. It did not resolve anything. The distance between the arguments was too big to facilitate any sort of dialogue. Neither of them was based on clear facts, just emotional assumptions.
I fully agree with Al Stead that the breeding of pure breeds is based on trust. Therefore when there is no clear evidence of impurity you just keep clear of a line of dogs if you are unsure. The same goes for your own dogs.
I bred and trained Finnemarka’s Guy. Likewise, I trained both his parents. Guy came about through the mating of two stud-fee puppies after Zero’s Sparkey and Zero’s Rue-Hoe. Sparkey’s son, Teamster’s Vesle Sparkey was bred to his aunt Speedo’s Rypa. Rypa was the littermate to Vesle Sparkey’s mother, Louise. Rypa was an outstanding dog but did probably not respond well to ANY musher. She was the best sled dog and leader I ever had. Guy was a very good dog too, but she was better. Roger Leegaard did very well with her when I was in Scotland. She was a co-leader with his German Pointer, Sindy. But then Roger was an exceptional dog musher.
Guy’s main breeding contribution was through his two litters with Sindy. Roger lifted the level of dog mushing through these two litters. Sindy and Guy’s puppies were the nucleus of his Alpirod winning team. In a sense Roger was the successful initiator of the Norwegian Hound.
Due to the lack of polar characteristics Guy and his siblings went mainly into my Alaskan breeding. In the long run my Siberian breeding was based entirely on my four other imports. Natomah’s Neka Nemik, Natomah’s Lisa, Artic Trail’s Graatass and Igloo Pak’s Daisy. Today, this breeding contribution is most prominent in Finnemarka’s Hippu. Natomah’s Neka Nemik was probably my second best sled dog ever. But then again, he was bred by another excellent dog musher, Art Allen.
Nemik had what could be called typical Seppala characteristics; good enough coat, very good feet (I trained him on a lot of coarse ground). However, his strongest attributes were firstly his stamina and secondly his speed. He would trot at 30km/hour, and then I could ask him to shift into a lope. He was better built than my very dear Guy. And most importantly, he was standard fitting. This is a very central point when we are breeding pure breeds.
The standard fits many dogs. But in my opinion it excludes the extreme opposites. That is, it excludes stocky show Siberians and the other extreme dogs which lack polar characteristics. In practice we are not able to exclude the mass-produced show Siberians as the breeders of these are in a majority. As dog mushers we can ourselves exclude our Siberians that lack polar characteristics from the Siberian gene-pool and still enjoy their running capacity.
All the most prestigious races in Scandinavia, on the European Continent and in North America are open to any kind of sled dog. Thus one does not need to register ones dogs to participate in the races that really count.

Chris
Go to Top of Page

northenough

USA
242 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2009 :  07:19:04 AM  Show Profile  Visit northenough's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Thanks Finnemarka for the background info and history. The thing to remember is that the facts DO exist out there somewhere, and it is comforting to hear someone offer something first-hand rather than rumor.

It is one thing to elect to exclude from a breeding program a dog or dogs due to certain characteristics that one does not like, or that one thinks does not fit the standard for the breed. But, fact is, one cannot exclude a dog from the genetic pool if it was born of Siberian parents--it IS a Siberian, it is in the gene pool--period. I have only respect for individual breeding decisions that other people make. This principle is, after all, what allows us to breed dogs the way we want to. I do, however, think that it might be a better choice sometimes to "breed around" or overlook a certain characteristic in a particular dog if the rest of the package is very good.

Also, let's be pragmatic in our breeding decisions. For someone to decide in theory what should be the characteristics and what should not strikes me as presumptuous and even arrogant. For example, I think that sufficient coat will show itself in our dogs by how they actually handle the cold, not by getting out a ruler to measure the length. I remember Ann Stead seeing some of our dogs at a race and asking me "don't they get cold with a short coat like that?". NO.

On top of it all, if we exclude the extremes we would never get an extremely fast dog or an extremely endurant one. Nature might be always lean toward the average, but this is a human endeavor and we are looking for the non-average. That is what dog breeds have always been based on. We have looked for the "freaks" and have then perpetuated them, often as a disservice to the dog. An example would be the large head and narrow hips of the bulldog, necessitating the majority requiring an automatic caesarean to whelp pups. Other examples more closely related to the Siberian abound in other AKC working breeds. A good PBS Nova production to see about this: http://www.shoppbs.org/product/index.jsp?productId=3450851&cp=&sr=1&kw=dogs&origkw=dogs&parentPage=search#Details
Go to Top of Page

Finnemarka

Norway
14 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2009 :  10:56:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Guy was just my example given. The whole litter was extreme in the same sense and they were all good sled dogs. These dogs were not excluded from a breeding program of Alaskans. And that is the whole point.
We are talking 20 years back in time now. I sold my team in 1991 after 30 years training sled dogs.

Chris Rose-Anderssen

Norway.

Chris
Go to Top of Page

northenough

USA
242 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2009 :  1:06:05 PM  Show Profile  Visit northenough's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Thanks, Chris. Many of us over here have heard of Guy and now we know even more. How much did he get bred to Siberians, and did you approve of that? I've heard that there is still some frozen semen from him. True? It seems that you saying you intentionally excluded him from a Siberian program. If so, was it because of a well-thought-out breeding strategy of yours, or because you suspected he wasn't a purebred dog? I am not yet clear on that from what you wrote.

I also like what you said about knowing and trusting the dogs one is accustomed to. We have less experience than you, but after doing this for almost 25 years, it is somehow special and nostalgic to have intimately known and even run behind the parents, grandparents, and even further back down the tree of the dogteam currently in front of one's eyes. However, I think this can also be a rut in the road for some people when it inhibits even looking at other dogs that could contribute because they look a little different or they don't like or trust the owner/breeder. When Doug Willett and I were travelling back from Lac St. Jean, Quebec in '93, we stopped at the parking lot for the park in Matawin when all the NE Siberian people had been training and were returning to their trucks. We then joined a large group for dinner south of there. After dropping dogs twice, not one single person came over to have a look at his dogs even though it was rare to have a chance to see what a Seppala was. Doug was a very competitive Siberian driver and an experienced overall dog man. To our disappointment, the discussion around the dinner table was composed of small talk. Many of these people I had known when I started mushing/racing in New Jersey. As I had moved out west and progressed in my pursuit of a better Siberian, I met up with Doug, Ralph Whitten, as well as others there. I had remained excited, motivated, and open to possibilities. I assumed everyone else had also. I was wrong, and it both surprised and saddened me.

Go to Top of Page

Finnemarka

Norway
14 Posts

Posted - 05/17/2009 :  04:15:20 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
With Guy you must read between the lines what I am trying to say. I did not know and I was uncertain.

When I had Guy, Alaskans were the hot thing in Norway. Thus people would breed to new Alaskan imports either for pursuing long distance or sprint races. many very good sled dogs. Also I think many Siberian owners if they were aware of Guy thought him to extreme for breeding to. He was more like Attla's Lingo type of dog for looks, you know.

I returned to Norway from Scotland in 1988 and sold the team in 1991. I guess only Roger and I really understood Guy's capacity then.

Apart from that, it is very good to learn about your line of dogs by breeding many generations. You see certain traits are prevalent. Then it is easier, I think, to know what you should look for. I had that sort of feeling with those dogs. Others who have bred a lot and been much, much more competitive than me now much more about what to look for. Selecting dogs becomes second nature to them .

I think Doug Willet is good for you to keep talking too. He has a lot of experience with Siberians of high Seppala percentage. A good sled dog is a good sled dog whether he is an Alaskan or a Siberian. I think the people you were referring to did not do too well with their Siberians. Thus they try to distance themselves from Siberian mushers. Trying to upgrade themselves by switching to Alaskans. They probably are not any better with their Alaskans.

You cannot avoid a lot of training and positive learning experiences for your dogs if you are to succeed.

Cheers

Chris

Chris
Go to Top of Page

STORMWATCH

USA
3 Posts

Posted - 05/20/2009 :  8:06:30 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My last Zero dog is 16 years and 8 months old. So it goes to say that I have been around for a while. I knew Harris and Ginger when they were very active. He had a certian smile that came to his face when asked about if he mixed his Alaskaans with his Siberians. I also have a VHS tape (somewhere) where Harris was asked if he mixed other dogs with his Siberians. With out watching it again I remember his stardard answer. It was to the affect that the Siberians would benifit from "hybred vigor" I believe that is what Doug Willet is doing with his Seppla-Siberian Project. If it is up front I do not have a problem with it. We chose not to breed our Zero Bitch more that once and did not breed the off spring. We have bred our Igloo Pak dogs into our show lines and have some very nice dogs that are true thripe purpose dogs.Funny that a few top 10 Iditarod winners are looking at my dogs to breed to this winter.


Wayne Curtis
Stormwatch Siberians
Since 1975
Wasilla, Alaska
Been there,done that.

Edited by - STORMWATCH on 05/20/2009 8:07:06 PM
Go to Top of Page

Theo

USA
1025 Posts

Posted - 10/04/2010 :  5:36:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have enjoyed following this discussion, lot of very accomplished mushers on here whom I admire. I have been out of dogs now for 6 years after a short stint one winter with alaskan huskies and a couple winters handling. Anyway, I might finally be in a position to skijor with a husky in the Adirondaks this winter and I am looking to get a pure bred working line siberian husky. So bloodlines are interesting to me.

Here is my uppity 2 cents:

Alaskan huskies were indigenous primitive type dogs at one time. The foundation stock of the Siberian husky were primitive indigenous type dogs from across the Bering sea. So at some point in history the dogs were probably pretty similar.

The farther back you go with Alaskan huskies the more they look like huskies.

People don't even have very many huskies in top ONAC teams anymore (talking about alaskan huskies) So I figure if a Siberian Husky had some Alaskan husky in it from 20 years ago it would still be some type of husky at least, because 20 years ago people were racing huskies in top open class sprint teams.

If you were to try to sneak through a breeding with a siberian husky and a top ONAC dog today, and try to register it with the AKC it would be a joke. You would get a flop eared hound dog that points at birds and has no undercoat.

To me it comes down to this: What is a husky? What good is a husky? Why have a husky? The answer is that it is a primitive indigenous type dog. It more closely resembles a wolf than other more domestic breeds of dogs. Its a primitive dog with a rich long standing tradition of providing a wild and primitive from of transportation and all the romance and nostalgia of the North Country that entails.

I think that's why people like Siberian huskies, weather they race them in sprint or show them. So I think the main thing is maintaining the primitive characteristics and also the working characteristics, but not just to "maintain" them but to beat other competitive teams in races, because that is a huge part of the tradition too and why Leonard Seppala and others imported these dogs: to win races.

IMO teams of AKC Siberians could win the Yukon Quest and Iditarod and other Mid distance races against Alaskan Huskies and other mixed breed sled dogs. People like Blake Freking and Mike Ellis are demonstrating that. I've been following them in races, and As far as Sprint, I have to wonder why people gave up on Alaskan huskies in sprint racing. Because whatever this Harris Dunlap did or didn't breed his Siberians too isn't being raced any more anyway. I mean they would appear in pedigrees but the dogs have evolved way beyond being any type of a Husky.

So these zeros might have a little smattering of something that is now obsolete anyway. So I would just look at the dog and ask "Is it a husky?" Is it an indigenous breed of dog with a genetic continuity with indigenous dogs going back to Siberia?

I have to say that some racing sibes dogs don't have that appearance. I am not talking about show looks, I am talking about a thick double coat, oblique eyes, thick bushy tail. A dog with round eyes, shorter coat, thin tail, tipped ears doesn't hearken back to primitive times.

There are people being competitive with really good looking working line Siberians. So I think there is something to it, with the cross breeding and I don't think its a compromise that would pay of in the ONAC anyway since its all hounds now anyway. You just get uglier dogs that still can't win, because they just look more like the village dogs that can't win now either.




http://sleddogblog.blogspot.com/
Go to Top of Page

WolfTribes

Sweden
26 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2011 :  12:25:48 PM  Show Profile  Visit WolfTribes's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Always annoys someone ... ;-)

Example of a very well thought out breeding plan and its pedigree ... An artificial insemination with the famous Finnemarkas Guy that I owned and raced the final years of his life (after Rose Christen Andersen and Maria Lindquist... 4 in te litter, no one for sale!!!

Here you can find the pedigree
http://www.fugitives.se/GuyInbreeding.htm

Jimmy Kyrk - Wolf Tribes
jimmy.kyrk@swipnet.se
+46702484981
.........................
Keep on Mushing
Go to Top of Page

midnightwind

Canada
453 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2011 :  8:50:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
IMO teams of AKC Siberians could win the Yukon Quest and Iditarod and other Mid distance races against Alaskan Huskies


this remains to be seen - with all due respect to Mike Ellis (and he deserves a lot) I don't see him knocking off Lance Mackey, Hans Gatt, Martin Buser or anybody named Seavey any time soon.

quote:
I have to wonder why people gave up on Alaskan huskies in sprint racing.


Mushing mag Mar/Apr 2009 Super Dogs: Joee Redington:" I am raising a new team of all huskies and I believe they can be as competitive as pointers."

Mushing mag July/Aug 2007 Super Dogs: Streeper Kennels; Little Dee (aka Dee Dee): 100% husky

Quote from 'Lead, Follow or Get Out of the Way' attributed to Terry Streeper:" If the dog is 1/8 hound you have to give it credit for being 7/8 husky."
Go to Top of Page

cricket

Canada
627 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2011 :  12:34:55 PM  Show Profile  Visit cricket's Homepage  Reply with Quote
after working with sibs i have noticed that their is competitive teams that run around the same times in sprint as the hounds and pointers but the guys who do this are always training and only do 1 or 2 races a year most of whom specialize in the 8 dog 8 mile class.
take steve maggio out of montana his dogs are amazing athletes and i have watched him do 3 minute miles at kimberley bootleg sled dog race where i think he finished 3rd or 4th over all in the 6 dog open and pure but he only does 2 races a year most of the time driving all the way to tok alaska for the race of champions
all his dogs are registered sibs and destroy all the other pure bred teams i have seen him race but like i said 1 or 2 races a year

what i am getting at is that we dont really ever get a chance to see the good sib teams out west but they are still out their
it would be nice if it was more worth while to come to these races ie purse raised but that is a differant conversation
Go to Top of Page

agilsledsibes

19 Posts

Posted - 09/19/2011 :  10:37:10 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
For those who believe that Zero's should not be considered PB Siberians might be interested in this story. This is the story of the LUA Dalmatian and how AKC has just determined that this line of Dals can again be registed as Dal's even though there was a planned outcross to a pointer back in the 70's to eliminate a genetic disorder. AKC has basically determined that this line of dals are no different on a genetic level than any other line of dals.
http://www.luadalmatians.com/H_W_Comm_Report_to_AKC_April_30__2010.pdf
IOW - a Zero Siberian is unlikely, if the outcross actually happened, to be any different today, genetically, than any other line of Siberian out there.
Jenn Siegel
VetGene Consultants
Furricane Racing Siberians
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 6 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
SDC Talk! © © Sled Dog Central Go To Top Of Page
Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.07