SDC Talk!
SDC Talk!
Home | Profile | Active Topics | Members | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Raising Sled Dogs
 Breeding/Whelping
 line breeding
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page | Next Page
Author  Topic Next Topic
Page: of 4

jconn

Vietnam
48 Posts

Posted - 05/15/2008 :  2:32:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Mike (Sublunar),

The Tritt X Mimi litter was actually produced by Stephan Bittl and the Streepers purchased that kennel. So buying dogs is another, and maybe more efficient, way to the top.

No matter whether you use inbreeding or outcrossing, there is a lot of luck involved. Once you find a combination that works, keep doing it!

Jeff Conn
Go to Top of Page

Jessica Doherty

USA
126 Posts

Posted - 05/15/2008 :  8:51:07 PM  Show Profile  Visit Jessica Doherty's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Ok, I figure I'll chime in since I like to study this stuff and used to put a fair amount of time into it.

I have studied Streepers lines and breedings, as well as many other kennels and lines, both in NA and Europe, and here are few things that stand out.

1. The practical application of successfully breeding to improve high performance dogs does not always correlate to what you read in genetics books, or to what works for breeders of purebred lines.

One note that seems to be very relavant is that some individuals are superior producers, and some particular crosses just mesh very well and give great results.
Some examples of superior World Class producers off the top of my head *Note, all of these dogs are outcrosses
1. Mike
2. Labben
3. Mimi
4. Pride
5. Sissel (1/2 EP, 1/2 GSP)
6. Odin
7. Lonley
8. Victor
9. Sailor
10. Drops III
11. Hop
A few notable crosses - all except 1 are outcrosses(sorry, I don't study the distance dogs)
1. Mike X Lakris (Odins sister)
2. Odin x Mikes sisters
3. Mike x Candy
4. TrittxMimi
5. TimmiexLonley - linebred 1 time
6. DropsxKeo (H Ingebrigtsen)
7. ChuckxSissel (greysters - Sissel was linebred)
8. HopxHallon

1. I have not seen really any linebreeding in Streepers kennel as far as I can tell. Only one litter that I can remember that is linebred really is Erin xPride, and they are probably a bit too young to tell much.
2. For Egils main teams, other than the last few years, all were outcrosses. Not just outcrosses themselves, but parents were also outcrosses. (Labben was a 1/2 EP outcross, Mike and his sisters were 1/2 GSP outcrosses) Labbens offspring Odin & Vesla, siblings, were repeated bred to Mike and his sisters - outcross to outcross, the husky lines in those dogs were also unrelated. Over the last few years, Egil has been line breeding successfully on the GSP part of the line. i.e TimmiexLonely (Mike and Timme are related as their mothers are sisters) as well as a few other similar crosses of this nature. It will be interesting to see the results more linebreeding in his kennel. BUT, this is literally the first generation of linebreeding in those pedigrees.
3. Ross Saunderson has more linebreeding in some of his dogs than most of the other open class sprint kennels that I have seen, take a look at his dogtec site.
4. Just because someone has a "line" or calls it their "line," does not mean it was linebred. For example, Lou Serres' Lourohounds 1/2 Polish Greyhound to Alaskan, Egils Mike line, the Labben line, Streepers Horse line, Marianne Norheims Greyster lines, Lena Boysens Greyster lines - all of these "lines" are not linebred, but based on a superior producer or specific cross that produced superior dogs. None of these "lines" were created by linebreeding.
Frankly, the only real line breeding I have seen is the Czech greyster lines and some in dogs of Ross Saunderson .
4. I haven't seen many inbreedings (brother-sister, father-daughter, mother-son) that produced a known superstar, but I have seen several pedigrees of SUPERSTAR dogs where one of the parents was either inbred or linebred.

It would be really interesting to hear from some of the folks that we talk about above - long time, world-class breeders.............

Jessica Doherty


http://www.dogtec.com/kennel/dohertyracingsleddogs

Edited by - Jessica Doherty on 05/15/2008 9:21:06 PM
Go to Top of Page

northome

USA
223 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2008 :  07:58:23 AM  Show Profile  Visit northome's Homepage  Reply with Quote
What Jessica talks about is four square in line with what I've been saying. In both kennels the emphasis has been to change the shape of the dogs to create a better athlete. Without going any farther than the first pedigree that I mentioned before, it is clear that is what is happening. One half of the pedigree is bird dog, no sled dogs whatsoever. When you think about the state of sprint racing in the last ten years it has been nothing if not a change to a new paradigm. The breedings that Jessica mentions are reflective of that.

When I first got into dogs, my teacher was crossing siberians with targee hounds. They were uniquely successful. Trying to go down from there was a problem though. Locking in the particular traits that made these dogs so great was going to take some luck and a lot of work. Tim White did some work with those types of dogs and was pretty successful after a while, but he was the only one I knew of to put that much effort into it. It could be that crossing these two shapes are the key to the enhanced performance that people are achieving nowadays, but don't mistake that for hybrid vigor. And, someday if someone puts in the work to figure out exactly what is working here and then lock it in by inbreeding, he will be reliably on top for some time.

Al Stead
Northome Siberians


Ann Stead
Northome on Windhill
Go to Top of Page

Dougskijors

Canada
574 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2008 :  10:02:06 AM  Show Profile  Visit Dougskijors's Homepage  Reply with Quote
A given phenotypic/performance/body trait can be the result of the combined expression from two different alleles (versions) of a gene.
So some useful traits may depend on heterozygosity, an animal carrying two different versions of the gene.
The 'dominant/recessive' idea is a simplification; it is possible to carry two different alleles and have some expression from each of them.
Trying to fix such a trait through line breeding may be impossible.
Go to Top of Page

sublunar

828 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2008 :  12:24:34 PM  Show Profile  Visit sublunar's Homepage  Reply with Quote
At this point, it seems there's considerable line-breeding in Ellis' (although recent), Ken Chezik's, and Ross Saunderson's teams. That's 1, 3, and 4 for the most recent North American. Not bad for a strategy that some folks shy away from. Chezik's team is especially impressive in terms of uniformity.

Go to Top of Page

northome

USA
223 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2008 :  12:43:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit northome's Homepage  Reply with Quote
What Doug suggests is quite problematic in this area. Incomplete dominance for instance can produce traits that are somewhere in between the two alleles. Probably the more likely issue is polygenic inheritence. A good example is hip dysplasia. It has been surmised that 5 separate genes contribute to dyspasia with all five necessary to produce a full blown case. Anything short of the perfect alignment of these genes will fall short of serious crippling. In the same vein, it is suggested that say, four out of five genes will produce shallow hips which will be weaker and prone to dysplasia.

In the case of producing superior performance in a complete animal, the number of traits that would have to be aligned is unimaginable. Therefore, the search for the best cross to maximize everything at once. Over the years nearly everything has been tried with varying degrees of success from greyhounds to salukis, to coon hounds. In each case the breeder sought a change in the shape of his dogs to promote speed and endurance.

The search isn't over.

Al Stead
Northome Siberians

Ann Stead
Northome on Windhill
Go to Top of Page

GregB

148 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2008 :  4:17:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks all for your contributions to the continuation of this discussion. Much to contemplate and research further, at least for my self education.

Al, when I use the term hybrid vigor, I am referring to changing shape. This may be by error but it is how I've seen the term used over the years, which also may be erroneous.

Jess, I think that's exactly what I'm talking about. That practice and practical results are very different than what science has learned..... On the other hand, as you suggest, there is much outcrossing happening outside of the purebred world. And for me that's why this is so confusing. But perhaps the strategy is (for non-purebreeds) you change the shape (outcross or mildly linebreed) until you are satisfied with what you have and then refine things by linebreeding. Shear conjecture here, but maybe Egil has found what he likes and is now trying to go about identifying genetic weaknesses in his kennel and setting traits. And that now he is ready to linebreed more, now, to get there.

Greg
Go to Top of Page

RSmith

USA
3105 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2008 :  8:58:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit RSmith's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Also just a note (observation I guess), that just because sucessful mushers may be outcrossing, they MOST DEFINITITELY are looking and seeking certain TRAITS that DO transfer in the genes outcross OR line bred! Its a crapshoot yes, but certain traits that folks are looking for ARE most definitely seen when bred together regardless. (tallness, fur, black pads, tough feet,etc,etc,)
And, like Jess mentions certain genetic 'codes' (hidden or otherwise) may 'click' or bind together when bred together producing super dogs and there is DEFINITELY patterns to whats producing top athletes and numbers (lines and crosses) if you look hard enough.

Roy Smith
Adirondack Kennel
Skandinavian Hounds/Stagsters
http://www.adirondack-kennel.com

Edited by - RSmith on 05/16/2008 9:00:13 PM
Go to Top of Page

northernstar

28 Posts

Posted - 05/17/2008 :  8:06:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Two words for you...
Doug Swingley.



Warren
Go to Top of Page

Trannyman

USA
42 Posts

Posted - 05/18/2008 :  08:03:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi, Folks great topic, fun to look at all these top mushers and what they do in there breeding programs. Streepers can sell a top dog off there team and not miss a beat, cause they have so many just like that dog waiting for a chance to shine. They drive all over the country racing in many diffirent places living out of the truck with 40 plus dogs all capable of winning every race. Ellis also very successful, don't sell his very top dogs smaller numbers make his truck but he does not travel outside Alaska? Streepers compete in everyones backyard, they stick there necks out there year after year. Both of these kennels are incrediable, goes without saying. Do you think they are just a little bit better dog people then the rest of us? Everyone has quality dogs at the top, just putting it all together at the right time is the key to success, the guys or gals that do that will always be the best. I think there are a few more guys that are right there too, it takes alot to be at that open team level, way beyond breeding great dogs, it's the whole package. We all watch everyone's breedings copy them if we see success but there is a whole lot more to it. The best in the sport are more than great dog breeders, it's management skills,putting all parts together on race day. Goodluck
Go to Top of Page

krakenrsh

Canada
313 Posts

Posted - 05/18/2008 :  11:34:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Warren,
Doug Swingley is a great example. He has been refining his genetics and breeding patterns since his early days breeding rabbits.
Paul
Go to Top of Page

qw

USA
112 Posts

Posted - 05/18/2008 :  11:37:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
From the pedigrees I have seen it doesn't seem like Doug or any other recent Iditarod champion have very many highly linebred dogs on their championship teams with the exception maybe of Buser. Same with golden harness winners, of the pedigrees I've seen almost all are not bred real tight.
Chad S.
Go to Top of Page

Trannyman

USA
42 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2008 :  10:15:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The point I have made is when your as good as the guys at the top every dog they breed to is proven in there yard doing the type of racing they do at the top level. so great dogs are bred to great dogs trained,fed,raced,conditioned etc...by great dog mushers for the best results. So if you sit at home and think about it you want to be as good or better than the best sure you need to breed quality dogs but you have to go and work on alot of other things too.Bottomline a top bred dog linebred crossbred etc.. Don't matter unless you put all the rest of it together. The value of a dog from the top kennels is more than the bloodline, it's the fact that the dog was(is) running for that top kennel. Nothing else matters in the end. Sure it's fun comparing all those fun facts about lines but that's all it is.
Go to Top of Page

sublunar

828 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2008 :  12:20:27 PM  Show Profile  Visit sublunar's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Trannyman
Sure it's fun comparing all those fun facts about lines but that's all it is.



Couldn't disagree more. I've been working for years to breed superior athletes (although I'll be the first to admit I haven't always succeeded or been able to train them to their potential). Understanding how other folks are getting there is like having a blue-print laid out in front of you, influences your decisions, guides your moves.

In my mind breeding is a high-stakes gamble, where the dogs often pay the price for the breeders failure. It's crucial to come to the table with every bit of information you can. Fun, sure. Only fun, not at all.
Go to Top of Page

Trannyman

USA
42 Posts

Posted - 05/19/2008 :  3:31:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You admitt not always being able to get there full potential. The consitent top guys&gals do get that year after year that is a huge advantage over everone else whether you want to believe that or not. I'm not saying it's fun getting beat or putting in effort with no results is fun. I am saying those Top people put themselves there with great effort and ability and thats true in any sport!
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 4  Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
SDC Talk! © Sled Dog Central Go To Top Of Page
Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.07