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cricket

Canada
627 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2008 :  1:20:54 PM  Show Profile  Visit cricket's Homepage  Reply with Quote
can some one please explain to me how this is accomplished

i mean is it daughter to grandpa or what

Daisy Acres

USA
112 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2008 :  02:06:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There are MANY ways to do it! One of the most common is to "breed back" with a daughter back to the grandpa. Sometimes people line breed by choosing a grandson of a particular dog and breeding it to a granddaughter from another branch.

I've seen brothers bred to sisters but I don't advise it. (Too close...chance for messes is just as great as chance for excellence.) Mother/Son, Father/Daughter--those are line bred too. Again, pretty close. (Inbred is perhaps a more accurate term.)

I'm sure there are many with MUCH more breeding experience who can enlighten all of us further!

What have you learned from your dog today?
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RSmith

USA
3105 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2008 :  08:33:38 AM  Show Profile  Visit RSmith's Homepage  Reply with Quote
"Artful Inbreeding" is the term I think and MANY ways people have done this, depending on what your looking for in the lineage(s), normally back 3-4 generations.
There are a great number of books on the subject.
It can be as simple or "complicated' and scientific as you want it to be.
This can probably explain it in a nutshell better than I could:

http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/genetics/inbreeding.html



Roy Smith
Adirondack Kennel
Skandinavian Hounds/Stagsters
http://www.adirondack-kennel.com

Edited by - RSmith on 05/04/2008 08:37:28 AM
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krakenrsh

Canada
313 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2008 :  09:14:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here is a link to a good, informative article supporting linebreeding as the most effective way to establish traits. I keep this article close at hand and refer to it often.

http://www.westwindgsps.com/linebreeding.htm

Paul W
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Willys Dad

USA
139 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2008 :  09:15:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've always felt that linebreeding is just inbreeding. Linebred sounds better than inbred when you are talking about your dogs.
Chris

The more people I meet the more I like dogs and their people.
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snowhook

USA
58 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2008 :  1:15:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's called line breeding when it works; if it dosen't, it's called in breeding. :)
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smushybanana

USA
562 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2008 :  4:58:17 PM  Show Profile  Visit smushybanana's Homepage  Reply with Quote
There are actually statistical definitions of inbreeding vs. linebreeding. There is a way of tracing an individual's ancestry back through all their common ancestors, and using the number of steps to compute the %inbred. Higher than a certain percentage and the individual is considered inbred. Most selectively bred dogs are inbred to some extent, some more than others. My point is, there is a statistical definition of inbreeding.

Hilary Schwafel
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Willys Dad

USA
139 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2008 :  7:01:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't believe that the COI,or Coefficient of Inbreeding, differentiates between inbred and linebred. It just calculates the percentage of inbreeding. Linebred dogs are inbred. It's a simple fact.

The more people I meet the more I like dogs and their people.
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northome

USA
223 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2008 :  08:07:26 AM  Show Profile  Visit northome's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hey Paul,

Great article! Keep it close. I have been promoting basicly the same ideas for a while now, only in a much more abreviated and simple way. That article should be required reading for all sled dog breeders. A lot of nonsense that keeps popping up on this forum would be done away with and all dogs would be better off.

Al Stead
Northome Siberians

Ann Stead
Northome on Windhill
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RSmith

USA
3105 Posts

Posted - 05/07/2008 :  10:31:38 AM  Show Profile  Visit RSmith's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Heres my fav on linebreeding.
Remember, a lot of us are dealing with crossbreeds, this article deals with 'purebreeds'.
In a sense, linebreeding purebreeds will get more reliable results than breeding mongrels.
Whether controversial or not, it is worth reading just as a simple genetic/math lesson.


http://members.autobahn.mb.ca/~cmarko/documents/junior.html

By Larry Mueller


Roy Smith
Adirondack Kennel
Skandinavian Hounds/Stagsters
http://www.adirondack-kennel.com

Edited by - RSmith on 05/07/2008 10:42:39 AM
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JGSperry

194 Posts

Posted - 05/07/2008 :  3:43:39 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Roy, thanks for posting. Very interesting article. I am unaware of any mushers that breed to the extent of line breeding that is described/advocated by Mueller. Can anyone shed some light on why that is the case? When I have talked with mushers that breed dogs the purpose of their breeding is to produce offspring that are superior to both their parents. Is it possible or likely to produce a superior dog through extensive line breeding or is it just more likely to produce dogs as good as the dog being linebred?

Does anyone here have experience with line breeding to the extent discussed in Mueller's article?
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northome

USA
223 Posts

Posted - 05/07/2008 :  5:46:54 PM  Show Profile  Visit northome's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I move around in as many doggy circles as I can. One of the binding characteristics of all the various groups is the continuing prejudice against inbreeding. This is the nonsense that I referred to before. Show people cling to this idea as well as crossbreed people in mushing. The history, and for that matter prehistory, of dog breeding is nothing but the story of inbreeding. If you look up the foundation of guide dogs for the blind, you will find that the german shepards that made up virtually all guide dogs were inbred on Frank of Ledge Acres. They took it to extreme lengths and had unmatched success. Of course they had to weed out the unfit ones, but that only made subsequent generations better.

As far as creating dogs that are superior to both parents by crossing this to that, it isn't the genetics that accomplishes it. It is the change in the actual form. Think about the dogs that were winning the open class races in the 80's vs the dogs today. They don't look too much alike. Someone figured out the right change in the form that would be superior to what existed and the whole thing changed. I am pretty sure there are more changes available to crossbreed breeders that will cause another quantum step ahead, but no one has identified them right now. I look forward to watching it when it does. And when it does, everybody will inbreed on it to set it so that they can enjoy it until it is superseded again.

Al Stead
Northome Siberians

Ann Stead
Northome on Windhill
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Sirius

USA
557 Posts

Posted - 05/07/2008 :  9:09:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
All 20 horses in the Kentucky Derby were descended from one sire--Native Dancer, who lived a half-century ago.
Neil Rasmussen
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shore

USA
414 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2008 :  1:24:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And there's always this warning about messing with genetics if you you're not sufficiently careful: http://xkcd.com/419/
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GregB

148 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2008 :  4:38:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Folks-

Ok from the links that have been posted, we have fairly differing opinions. From the scientific community link I gather that you can increase homozygotism (say, what?) but the risks of infertility greatly increase. You also risk limiting good heterzygotic effects and there seems to be a question of how much homozygotism effect is translated to the desired genes. In other words, there is no way to target the desired gene that you want to double up on.

From the breeding community, we have a resounding that in practical terms, if done correctly line breeding/inbreeding can have extraordinary effects. And taking it to it's furtherest effects can even eliminate recessive defects, which is even advocated by these folks.

Just wondering out loud here, as I have no experience at breeding and am not a genetic scientist, which path is correct? The positions are fairly at odds. Thanks

Greg

Edited by - GregB on 05/10/2008 06:31:04 AM
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RSmith

USA
3105 Posts

Posted - 05/10/2008 :  5:28:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit RSmith's Homepage  Reply with Quote
If anyone wants to REALLY dwell into and understand more about Canine Genome studies, I would highly recommend looking into the work of Dr's. Jasper Rine and Ostrander at UCAL Berkely, of which I had the pleasure of meeting while attending school out West. Truly awesome research.

Happy reading.

Roy Smith
Adirondack Kennel
Skandinavian Hounds/Stagsters
http://www.adirondack-kennel.com

Edited by - RSmith on 05/10/2008 5:31:13 PM
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