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teamgsp

Canada
96 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2007 :  12:38:33 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I can't seem to find anything to read about that subject. But do any of you double up your dogs in the kennels or pens at home? Any problems with fighting? what size kennel would you recommend for 2 dogs per pen?

You can't go faster than your slowest dog. :)

Big Toe

USA
236 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2007 :  05:54:05 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
TeamGSP
That is how our kennel is set up currently we have 2 dogs per pen 10' by 6' we have no fighting in the pens nor neighbor fighting...our old kennel the pens were 10'by 10' and sometimes we would have 3 dogs in a pen. The only issue is feeding time where you might get one that will try and get the others food however we nip that quickly....each pen has a double dog house so each one can have their own house. I will send pic just email me.
Bob "Big Toe"
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EllieRose

USA
973 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2007 :  06:01:26 AM  Show Profile  Visit EllieRose's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Before I made the move to WI we had pens that were 10 x 10 and had three dogs in each pen. I would have preferred two but the constraints were what they were. Anyway, we did have a big resource guarding issue toward the end when it came to food. So I just made some slightly longer leader necklines and tied everybody up real quick before they got their food- once they figured it out they immedietly ran to their "spot" and sat waiting to get clipped up at feeding time. On a side note we switched to a tether system last fall and the food guarding has virtually vanished.

www.freewebs.com/briarlea
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P, Ann Nelson

USA
438 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2007 :  06:05:30 AM  Show Profile  Visit P, Ann Nelson's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Many years ago, I had a half acre fenced in and let all 10 of my dogs run loose in it. Everything was good until I rescued 2 intact males, and brought them home before they were neutered. All hell broke loose! So, now we keep 2, at the most 3, dogs in each of our 20X60' kennels, and in the 20X40 kennels always just two dogs.
It depends on the dogs, but we rarely have fights, and for a couple of dogs, that is the most likely to happen at feeding time. So, those dogs are not kenneled together. Most of the time we have a female and male in the kennels...sometimes two females and one male. I like to mix them up, though there are definately "best buds" among them. Each dog has their own house, but often, when it is cold, they will double up in one house.
We also have a dog yard below the kennels where we can tether another 10 dogs, but there are ususally only 6 dogs in the dog yard and these are mostly the older dogs that prefer to be tethered.

Ann Nelson
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Ladysibes

Canada
468 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2007 :  07:21:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Our kennel was set up so that our smallest pens are 10ft x 20ft - for dogs in season, breeding or to keep the one or two dogs that don't mix well seperate. Even at that there are 2 dogs per run.

The whelping kennels are 20ft x 20ft. All the rest of our kennels are at minimum 20ft x 30ft and hold up to six dogs. Our biggest kennels are 40 x 60 and have up to 8 dogs in each. At feeding or hook up time each dog gets chained to the fence so there is no fighting over food or getting too excited about running.

The biggest problem we face with this open kennel system - is watching for the girls to go into season and getting them moved out of 'general population' into 'solitary confinement' until they are done.

The greatest benefits - they work out whatever pack issues they are going to have and we have NO fighting on line, at hook ups etc. They are also in much better shape at the start of training in the fall because they've had the freedom to run and chase and play with one another all summer - 24/7.
Has worked for us for 16 years.
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RSmith

USA
3027 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2007 :  08:05:41 AM  Show Profile  Visit RSmith's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Many moons ago had a kennel set-up with 8X10 with two dogs, no fights. I had a smaller area on the inside of the barn too that was 6X6 for their house and feeding,getting out of the extreme weather,etc.

My new kennel (isn't nearly done yet) will have 3 dogs per kennel (14 total) with each measuring 8X10 outside kennel and 8X10 inside kennel. So, they actually have 8X20 living area. I don't expect many fights. REason is I really focus on this at an early age; they are always let loose to mingle and also travel together mix and match, go for rides in the truck together (in the cab), and come inside and spend two nights a month inside. All dogs are housebroken this way makes it a little easier when you do it at an early age and 2 at a time. Yeah, 46 dogs housebroken! Haaa Just makes things a bit easier.

But, I think if your dogs have never been together or in situations like this or all loose together it will be difficult (not impossible) to keep them from either fighting or uncomfortable.


Roy Smith
Adirondack Kennel
Skandinavian Hounds/Stagsters
http://www.adirondack-kennel.com
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rbibber

USA
411 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2007 :  08:06:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have 2 10 X 20 pens, a 10 X 26 and a 12 X 26, and one odd-shaped roughly 15 X 15 pen. One pen has 3 12 week old pups. The others have 2 dogs each.

All of my intact females are - for obvious reasons - in pens. I pair up the ones that seem to get along the best. I even paired one with a neutered male because they seem to be "best friends". Other than the occasional grumbling, I rarely - if ever - have any fighting issues. At one point I had several dogs (Intact females and neutered males) all together in one big 20 X 40 kennel. They definitely developed a "pack hierarchy" then and there were a few fights. Especially with the epileptic male who was always at the bottom of the pecking order. This is not something that I will ever do again. 2 or 3 to a pen is the most I will put together from now on.

Laurie, I find that the dogs on the swivel tie-outs get more excersise than the ones in the pens and seem to be generally happier because they have their own space. I even considered taking all of my fence panels and making one big enclosure with the females on tie-outs inside. I would keep one big section for whelping/puppies though.


Rob Bibber
Vassalboro, Maine
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RSmith

USA
3027 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2007 :  08:30:21 AM  Show Profile  Visit RSmith's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I don't find that my dogs are hapier or unhappy in kennels. I think you need to let them loose more often thats all. I loose run my dogs 2X per day plus they get the loose pen 40X30 near the house for 2 days at a time ( I rotate all the dogs). If you can't give your dogs that much loose running/mingling then Probably I would say yes, Rob is right they probably WOULD develop some spacial concerns or depression or whatever. I have been able to be here/home for my dogs at least 1/2 the day and able to do things with them 2X per day. I make other chores while they are loose so as not to go out of my way every time just to let them run loose; theres ALWAYS something to do in the dogyard. LOL

My area for the barn is 45' X 85', then I have 150' X 200' fenced in around this area with inexpensive wire fencing just to keep them at bay while I'm with them. I also made a fenced in 'race track' for puppy training that is a narrow fenced in 6' wide that goes for 600' and makes a loop and comes back. I'm too close to the road so I have them blast out of the dogyard and follow me through this. Once the pups are bigger I take them places to do this.






Roy Smith
Adirondack Kennel
Skandinavian Hounds/Stagsters
http://www.adirondack-kennel.com

Edited by - RSmith on 08/08/2007 08:31:46 AM
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teamgsp

Canada
96 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2007 :  10:08:39 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I would love to see some pictures big toe my email is mcduval@xplornet.com

You can't go faster than your slowest dog. :)

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Woofy

USA
658 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2007 :  10:40:01 AM  Show Profile  Visit Woofy's Homepage  Reply with Quote
We have a petco or petsmart kennel (I don't recommend getting one--it's horrible to put up, and I can't imagine taking it down), and I think it is 14X7 feet, or something. It's warped and full of holes from the Malamute, so we put up plywood sidings. We keep 2-3 dogs in it at a time, just depending on what everyone is doing. We have had maybe one or two fights, but it was all just bluffing. No real fights. The Malamute will steal the others' food if they let him, so we have to watch them at feeding time. The dinner hook-ups is a good idea.

"Sailor Girl Sled Dog Kennel"
www.freewebs.com/sailorgirlkennel
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needtosled

Canada
251 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2007 :  2:42:20 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
we have just about done our kennel constuction and had to move dogs and double up some due to rescues coming in but on average we have most pens with 2-3 dogs 20X25 and the 30x25 we have 3-4 dogs we have other holding kennels that are 15x25 for 2 dogs each and the community pens that is about 80x80 and it has 10 dogs in there right now

not alot of fighting but we have to watch who we put in with who we have a few males here that can ONLY be housed with females. feeding time they all have their bowls and we will not allow any fighting all have their bowl and spot to eat and we have 2-3 5 gallon water buckets in each pen to save any territorial issues

enjoying a good team is like a fine wine.
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Ladysibes

Canada
468 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2007 :  06:23:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey Rob..
quote:
Laurie, I find that the dogs on the swivel tie-outs get more excersise than the ones in the pens and seem to be generally happier because they have their own space. I even considered taking all of my fence panels and making one big enclosure with the females on tie-outs inside. I would keep one big section for whelping/puppies though.


Interesting comment. Though in my experience the opposite is true. May be true of some dogs - although ours race around and play pretty much continually. We do still have a few dogs that are still on swivels - they will not adapt to the kennel system we have here.

Of course you have to be careful how, who and when you introduce new dogs to the system - but it is whatever works for each person.
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new2mush

USA
69 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2007 :  08:00:55 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Question for you all- What type of fencing are you using for the kennels? Are they on cement, dirt??? I want to build runs for the dogs too. Thanks
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EllieRose

USA
973 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2007 :  08:01:43 AM  Show Profile  Visit EllieRose's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I do have to agree with Rob. Once my crew adapted to the new system they were very active and it continued for more hours of the day. And like I said the resource guarding in my kennel has virtually disappeared, it is limited to really good things like a new bone and it is only seen in one dog. Even with free runs they argue less and seem to respect that each dog has their own area. I know that when i was looking into what type of kenneling to go with about this time last year a couple of guys were calculating the area that each dog gets and the difference in excersice that they get. I'm not going to jump into an argument about it- I'm happier with the switch and so are the dogs but each kennel is different.
Here's the discussion I mentioned. http://www.sleddogcentral.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6991&SearchTerms=starting,over

www.freewebs.com/briarlea

Edited by - EllieRose on 08/09/2007 08:04:53 AM
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swanny

USA
864 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2007 :  08:53:21 AM  Show Profile  Visit swanny's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Here is an excerpt from an article I'm working on for future publication. It may provide some useful insights. Citations are at the end.

Single-housing for prolonged periods is likely to be deleterious to the dog and has been associated with an increased incidence of behavioral abnormalities (Hetts et al. 1992). Dogs in runs or pens should at be housed in pairs or larger groups, as dogs in pairs spend a similar proportion of their time interacting with each other as dogs kept in groups of 5-11 animals (Hubrecht 1993).

Single-housing may sometimes be necessary for reasons of health, aggression or to isolate a bitch in season, but the duration should always be kept to a minimum. To prevent behavioral problems associated with social isolation, dogs that are housed individually must be within sight of other dogs and should be given extra human interaction. (Hubrecht 1993)

In the group-housing situation aggression can be a serious problem, which may lead to the death of animals. Therefore, it is important to ensure that there is an adequate husbandry routine to monitor the dogs and forestall potential problems.

Runs or pens need to be large enough to allow dogs to perform most behaviors that are typical of their species. It is recommended that pens provide at least 100 square feet of space for each dog housed within them. Many certified behaviorists have observed that dogs spend more time exercising in rectangular pens rather than in square, so a two-dog pen measuring 10’ X 20’ would be very effective for two dogs housed together. (Rollet J)

Chain-link or sturdy woven wire fencing with walls buried 6 to 12 inches (15 to 30 cm) inches into the ground provide a sturdy barrier that discourages digging. A fence height of 5 feet (1.5 m) or more is recommended to discourage climbing. Holes in fencing should be small enough to prevent puppies’ heads and adult dogs’ feet and legs from getting trapped. Take care with doghouse placement so that the roof of the doghouse can not be used as a platform from which a dog can climb or jump over a fence.

Runs and pens must be equipped with gates that are wide enough to permit easy entry and egress from the enclosure, but which can be closed quickly if necessary to prevent a dog from “rushing” the gate and escaping. Gates must be equipped with latching devices that are easy for the musher to manipulate while wearing gloves, but difficult for dogs to manipulate. During winter it is important to shovel snow well away from gates in order for them to swing fully open when necessary.

Citations:
Hetts S, Clark JD, Calpin JP, Arnold CE, Mateo JM 1992. Influence of housing conditions on beagle behaviour. Applied Animal Behaviour Science 34: 137-155.
Houpt K, Reynolds A, Erb H, Sung W, Golden G, Yeon W; A Comparison of Tethering and Pen Confinement of Dogs. Journal of Applied Animal Welfare Science, vol 4, no 4, 2001: 257-270.
Hubrecht RC 1993. A comparison of social and environmental enrichment methods for laboratory housed dogs. Applied Animal Behaviour Science 37: 345-361.
Hubrecht R 1995 The welfare of dogs in human care. In Serpell J (ed.), The Domestic
Dog 179-198. Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press

Hughes, H. C., & Campbell, S. A. (1989). Effect of primary enclosure size and human
contact. In J. Mench & L. Krulisch (Eds.), Canine research environment (pp. 66–73).
Bethesda, MD: Scientists Center for Animal Welfare.

Rollet J (CCB). Private Email correspondence with Thomas Swan, 6/8/07


“A good dog is so much a nobler beast than an indifferent man that one sometimes gladly exchanges the society of one for that of the other.” William Francis Butler

http://www.tworiversak.com/mushing.htm
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rbibber

USA
411 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2007 :  10:15:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Excellent info swanny

I have noticed that dogs housed double in a pen seem to be more content than when housed single. I try to avoid single-housing in a pen.

BUT also should remember that all dogs are different. What works for one dog may not work for all dogs. Many dogs seem to prefer tie-outs, others seem more content in a pen, some couldn't care less one way or the other. This is why I like having both tie-outs and runs.

Laurie: I do have some dogs that play a lot in the pens but many just seem to lie around more in the pens than when they are on tie-outs. Generally it seems that the dogs on the tie-outs keep their muscle tone better than the ones in the pens.

Roy: Having a large fenced in enclosure where I can free run my dogs is definitely on my wish list but right now there just isn't enough room in the budget for that. I have a few dogs that I can free run off leash and the others I put on a 20' leash one at a time for supervised play/exercise. With 20+ dogs in my kennel now this does get rather time-consuming. Maybe I'll just have to "bite the bullet" and buy more fencing.


Rob Bibber
Vassalboro, Maine
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