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 De-worming products/advice from Dr. Vanek
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Dr. Jerry Vanek

149 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2004 :  1:09:55 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
DNP is disophenol which has a high toxicity and narrow range of safety, causing blindness, convulsions, and death. It lasts two weeks in the dog’s blood and was taken off the market in the US. It is good only for hooks and esophageal worms.

Styquin is Butamisole hydrochloride, also no longer available in the US. The lethal dose is only 4 times the therapeutic dose, and it causes death because it is a neuromuscular blocker, and only good for hooks and whips.

There are much better, safer products on the market now. Of course, the newer drugs cost more to develop without the dangerous side effects, and the newest ones may have trademark protection, which raises the price until the trademark expires, leading to competition and lowered prices. Mostly drug companies just like money.

The benzimidazoles are very good, broad-spectrum drugs. However, they dissolve slowly, which is why they are given orally, and they usually taste terrible. Albendazole is a very effective product, but it was taken off the market for a while due to its toxicity. In addition, it is a teratogen and should not be given to pregnant bitches. Mebendazole (telmin) is a similar product and also is teratogenic. Fenbendazole (panacur) is the one approved for dogs and is the most effective relative to its toxicity. It is not as teratogenic and has even been given to pregnant bitches every day during the last 40 days of pregnancy to insure pathogen-free puppies.

Febantel, which is an active ingredient in Vercom Paste, is metabolized to fenbendazole in the liver and acts the same as Panacur.

I respect mushers’ (such as Magali’s) desire to rotate de-wormers for fear of building resistance in worms. We recommend it, too. However, it is probably overkill. One philosophy is: “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” One can de-worm with the same product until a resistance is exhibited, then switch to another. There is the theory that continued switching of drugs will more slowly build resistance to all the drugs, and when that happens, there will be nothing left in the arsenal to treat the worms.

The real key is animal husbandry, not drugs. I used to lecture widely to mushers about kennel management, with a short mention of drugs. Sadly, in the question and answer sessions afterward, only the drug dosages seemed to be important to dog owners. I guess this is not a surprise, as the US spends around 33 billion dollars a year on weight loss schemes, when all a fat person has to do is eat less and exercise more. We spend billions of dollars fighting illicit drug use, and a person dies from nicotine addiction (tobacco) every 45 seconds in America. We just seem to love them little pills.
When next I get a chance I'll post some thoughts on doing fecals at home as well as some thoughts on how mushers may be miscalculating dosages and under dosing the dogs. Then to really scare the hell out of everyone, maybe I'll discuss a little statistical epidemiology like sensitivity, specificity, predicive value positive and predicitve value negative to put the value, or lack of value, of home fecal testing in perspective. Happy tails!


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mikiyuk

France
246 Posts

Posted - 06/25/2004 :  02:12:58 AM  Show Profile  Visit mikiyuk's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Previously I used this wormer Telmin KH, but now I use Synanthic, it less expensive and in my opinion so good as telmin kh.

du fur rendez vous kennel.france.

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Dr. Jerry Vanek

149 Posts

Posted - 06/25/2004 :  10:01:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If the following insults one’s intelligence, then please accept my sincerest apologies in advance.

It occurs to me that some mushers could be calculating the dosages of the bulk livestock dewormers they’re purchasing at feed stores based on the entire contents of the container, rather than the percentage of active drug in the box.

If that is the case, then the dogs are being significantly underdosed.

For instance, the Panacur paste for horses contains 25 grams of Panacur. But, that paste contains only ten per cent or 2.5 grams of fenbendazole, the active ingredient. If a musher calculates the dosage per dog based on 25 grams of fenbendazole in the tube then each dog will get only 1/10th of the appropriate dose. No wonder worms continue to be a problem for many mushers. A fifty-pound dog should get 1.136 grams of fenbendazole each of three days in a row (50 milligrams of active drug per kilogram body weight). This would require almost one and a half tubes of horse de-wormer for one dog over a three-day period. If a musher thinks there’s 25 grams of fenbendazole in the tube (instead of 2.5) he will treat 7 dogs three times each and think he’s saving money, but the dogs will not be de-wormed. Or worse, only the weakest worms will die, leaving the hunks to survive and reproduce.

The reason a dog requires so much of the horse de-wormer is that horses are dosed at 1/10th the dose. Dogs need 50 milligrams per kilogram body weight while horses and cattle are dosed at 5 milligrams per kilogram body weight. Thus, an 1100-pound horse and a 110-pound dog would each consume a whole tube of horse Panacur, while a 55-pound dog would require half of that same tube.

Panacur granules that come in a bottle contain 22.2% active fenbendazole, or about 1/5th concentration. Similarly, if a musher calculates the de-wormer dose based on the 1-pound (454-gram) weight of the bottle, the dogs will be under-dosed by five times. Remember that a 1-pound bottle of 22.2% Panacur only holds 101 grams of active fenbendazole. A one-pound bottle will dose roughly 30 50-pound dogs three times each. If a dog weighs only 37 pounds, then 40 of them could be dosed three times each from a bottle, as another musher previously described.

All other drugs should be approached the same way. Read the label, or ask the sales-dweeb-person (at your own risk!!), or go on-line to the manufacturer, or call them directly, to find out the actual concentration of active drug in the carrier. Seriously under-dosing your dogs will not only leave them infected, it will select for super bugs.

Best yet, sit down with your local veterinarian and design a customized Integrated Pest Management System for your specific kennel. It will be money well-invested in the long run.

Happy tails…


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Admin

USA
1484 Posts

Posted - 06/25/2004 :  5:10:42 PM  Show Profile  Visit Admin's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Jerry, we really appreciate you sharing your knowledge on "deworming" with us (I have now added a new word to my vocabulary).

Because the topic has grown beyond Atgaard, I've renamed the topic to better cover the content.

Judy Bergemann
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magali

USA
904 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2004 :  12:22:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dr Vanek,
I just wanted to say that when we decide to use "cattle wormer" we e-mail the product info and percentage to the National Vet school in Alfort and then Dominique ,send us how much and how often to use it...
sometimes using the cattle wormer isn't cheap but like you said we want to use variaty of wormer ...... My husband (former MD) is like you he keeps on telling me they don't need to be wormed every month or so ...
but he knows better than to argue with me... When we came back from Russia after feeding raw frozen fish we used ALBENZADOLE to treat for Tenias.

Except few ascaris I found in puppy stool, I never had a "worm" problems in our adult dogs...
I do beleive it is because we take good care of them, the kennel is clean (poop wise) and the ground is drained (south slope).

We do'nt feed fish (orgame meat or game bones) at all so We are not worried about Tenia too much


Would you have a EXAMPLE of worming schedule for a keenle who start training in august, then go to races in January through March...
a simple liost of which wormer you would recommend to use and when in the year...

THANKS A LOT FOR YOUR PARTICIPATION IN THIS FORUM



Magali PHILIP, Nenana, AK
www.noatak.com
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Dr. Jerry Vanek

149 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2004 :  08:48:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Matgali,

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I have to be careful not to let this chat line eat up my life. (Stepehen King's next novel will be about a parasitologist being parasitized by his own computer.)

I will discuss some deworming schedules in the near future, but I will be somewhat vague on purpose (see my latest response in the Tylan bracket). I am fearful of saying something specific that suddenly everyone is doing when it may not be approriate for everyone.

I can't, and won't, stop encouraging every musher to develop a strong relationship with a local veterinarian, even if it means taking the time, and a good stiff drink, to educate him or her about your own special and unique kennel circumstances. This takes patience and time, and unfortunately, money, but it pays off in the end.

I would rather a musher takes my thoughts to their own veterinarian with the question, "Will this work in my case?" then simply do what I say only to have your personal veterinarian find out and despair, "That idiot Vanek doesn't know we don't even have goober worms here in Florida!"

I've been burnt too many times and it's made me old and cranky.

Stay tuned

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magali

USA
904 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2004 :  01:30:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dr Vanek,

In Fairbanks there is vet and good one but the price for advice is very high... but we "all" use the Bush vet for surgery like spays etc...
I personnaly go to Val Stuve for any emergency... The Bush vet isn't available all the time... And not always reliable for appointments.... (But like everybody I rather 80$ for a neuter than 280$ in town...)

Like you said there is no "magic" receipe since we all live in different area and expose our dogs to different things...
Thank you for your advice.

Thanks for coming on this forum... this is WAY COOL...

PS:
Just to let you know now I can put a face on your name, Dominique has a book with your picture in it.... I guess you know each other...


Magali PHILIP, Nenana, AK
www.noatak.com
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Dr. Jerry Vanek

149 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2004 :  09:01:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Magali,

Regarding deworming programs: As I said, they vary greatly by geography and personal lifestyles and goals. Right now, I am debating whether I should discuss deworming based on worms or on geography or by drug type.

I'll come up with something.

Dominique is a good friend (as are so many sled dog veterinarians). I have known him for many years. We served on the ISDVMA board together, were co-chairs of the ISDVMA meeting in Reims, went whale watching in the Atlantic together, and were veterinarians for the IFSS world championships in Lake Placid.

Lately, we have not seen much of each other, though. Hopefully, he can join us in Anchorage, September 15 - 17, for the 10th anniversary ISDVMA meeting and symposium at the Captain Cook Hotel (sneaky advertisement).

Time is the greatest distance between two people.



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tdog

19 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2004 :  12:16:38 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Guru question: How soon after whelping can mom get dewormed. (also how far into pregnancy is it safe. I read about the 50 day panacur trial above, but timewise is that recommended) Obviously after weaning it doesn't matter. Assume panacure or strongid.

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joca

USA
224 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2004 :  12:15:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Re: deworming pregnant bitches


Here's some info I found online at the CDC site.

"While it has long been recognized that transplacental and transmammary infection of ascarids and hookworms could be prevented through prophylactic treatment of pregnant dogs, no drugs are currently approved for this use.  However, the effectiveness of this approach with different drugs approved for parasite control in dogs has been well documented.  Daily treatment of pregnant dogs with fenbendazole from the 40th day of gestation through the 14th day of lactation has been shown to inhibit T. canis larvae in tissues, thereby preventing or greatly reducing the incidence of infection in puppies.19   Alternatively, studies have shown that treatment with ivermectin on day 0, 30, 60 of gestation and 10 days post whelping, reduced the adult T. canis worm burden in pups by 100% and prevented the shedding of eggs.20   In yet another study, treatment with selamectin at 10 and 40 days both before and after parturition was effective in reducing T. canis fecal egg counts in both pups and their dams, and adult worms in the pups.21  "

The article can be found at
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dpd/parasites/ascaris/prevention.htm

Jo



Edited by - joca on 06/30/2004 11:43:27 PM
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joca

USA
224 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2004 :  12:32:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here are a couple of sites: photos/descriptions of parasites.

Parasites and Parasitic Diseases of Domestic Animals

http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/merial
http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~parasite/home.html
see also pets and people link at this site.

Edited by - joca on 06/29/2004 09:14:52 AM
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joca

USA
224 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2004 :  12:37:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I should point out, both times we saw evidence of worms it was in litters out of bitches we brought down from Alaska. They and their pups seemed to carry a heavier load than dogs acquired elsewhere.

Edited by - joca on 06/29/2004 12:45:08 AM
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PIPPINS28

USA
17 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2004 :  7:27:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Will Atgard also kill tapeworms in dogs?

PIPPINS28
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n/a

10 Posts

Posted - 05/01/2012 :  10:30:39 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here's a link I found to a site with Fenbendazole for about $20:

http://www.bigdweb.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1850G

Is it safe to administer fenbendazole 1x/month as a precaution? My vet said the standard dosage for panacur would be 1x/day for 3 days and 1x again 1 day in 3 weeks.

My plan is to administer dosage per bottle directions to my now 75lb. Labrador or to administer for 3 days and then 1x/month thereafter depending on what I find out. I'm suspecting he has giardia or whipwom (whipwom would be the vet's suspision based on symptoms) because after 5 weeks on a diet for sensitive stomachs and after a fecal test, a treatment for tapeworm and a round of metronidazole, my dog still has (slightly less)watery diarrhea and is still losing weight.

(He likes to swim, so we do in-water fetching in various ponds about 3x/week and he sneaks the occasional goose poop (eeeuw!) snack)
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RSmith

USA
3105 Posts

Posted - 05/01/2012 :  11:16:24 AM  Show Profile  Visit RSmith's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Those numbers sound about right to try and keep the Whips down if you have a problem. I just give it to my dogs 1X every Month and my vet says that's fine. It's awfully tough to completely eradicate you kennel.
I do the 3days and again 3 weeks later routine a couple times per year though just because. lol

Just remember were dealing with Canines here (not goats, swine or horses) and the dose is 50 migs per kig would be 1,150ml (11.5ml) ( in 10% form ) for a 23Kg dog.

Roy Smith
Adirondack Kennel
Skandinavian Hounds/Stagsters
http://www.adirondack-kennel.com

Edited by - RSmith on 05/01/2012 11:20:40 AM
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