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 Health: General
 De-worming products/advice from Dr. Vanek
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PIPPINS28

USA
17 Posts

Posted - 06/02/2004 :  8:02:39 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Has anyone ever heard of using a wormer called "Atgard" a swine wormer I believe,comes in a packet with blue crystals?

PIPPINS28

RSmith

USA
3105 Posts

Posted - 06/02/2004 :  9:00:37 PM  Show Profile  Visit RSmith's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yes, I think I was going to use it for Whips, but wasnt cost effective enough for a large kennel.

Adirondack Kennel
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PIPPINS28

USA
17 Posts

Posted - 06/02/2004 :  10:28:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
DOES ANYBODY KNOW IF ATGARD IS EFFECTIVE AND HOW TO ADMINISTER IT TO DOGS?

PIPPINS28
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RSmith

USA
3105 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2004 :  10:26:42 AM  Show Profile  Visit RSmith's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Atgard has Dichlorvos as active ingred.
Dichlorvos is an organophosphate, effective against a broad spectrum of many GI helminths and has a moderate toxicity.
Not sure on published doses for dogs,
Why Atgard? Theres many others that are just as effective or More effective: ie: fenbendazole,(Panacur 22%),
What are you worming for?


Adirondack Kennel
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PIPPINS28

USA
17 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2004 :  11:17:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Deb, thanks for all the valuable info, learned of using Atgard from a knowledgable musher named Tom Mathias,he used to use it every year right before training began.

PIPPINS28
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Dr. Jerry Vanek

149 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2004 :  10:51:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow! I had no idea anyone was still using dichlorvos in dogs! How totally, like, you know, retro, as they say in California. We weren't even recommending it to our veterinary students back in 1989.

Be aware that dichlorvos is the same organophosphate used in "No pest strips," which are seldom used anymore because of the environmental toxicity. It is considered a neurotoxin.

If you're going to use it, keep some atropine around, just in case!

Also, good to hear that you aren't using dichlorvos for whips, not because of the cost, but because it is not labeled for whips in dogs and not that effective. It is labeled for whips in pigs, but we're comparing apples and oranges.

Neither is pyrantel effective for whips, so you're going to have to reach for panacur or some other benzimidazole, anyway, in which case you'll also be getting the worms dichlorvos gets.

Also note, dichlorvos will enhance the toxicity of pyrantel pamoate (aka nemex or strongid-t.) Don't use them together.

And dichlorvos should not be used if there is any suspiscion of heartworm infection. It'll possiblly kill your infected dog. On those lines, dichlorvos is not a heartworm preventive, so you still need to be dosing with ivermectin or some other avermectin product every month. And if you are using Heartguard Plus, remember that Plus product has pyrantel in it (see above).

Dichlorvos is also contraindicated with constipation, liver disease, infections, circulatory failure, etc. While these are not common problems in healthy huskies, remember that racing dogs, while not sick with these diseases, are undergoing the stresses that impact those organs. For instance, sled dogs battle dehydration all the time. Dehydration predisposes to lowered circulatory function, constipation, etc. Therefore, de-worm with dichlorvos when the dogs are not in the height of training or racing.

There are so many new and better de-wormers out there (I don't know why anyone would want to "worm" their dogs!)that I can't imagine going back to a dinosaur.

However, if you're determined to save pennies, dichlorvos will kill the round worms and hook worms in your dogs, when used judiciously, and it won't harm your dogs, if used correctly.

The vast majority of people who drive without seatbelts will not die from their decision. It's all a matter of weighing risks and benefits and costs. Everyone has different priorities, good or bad.

Personally, I think if a musher can't afford a good de-wormer it is possible the musher has too many dogs for their life-style to support.

Happy mushing.
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magali

USA
904 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2004 :  11:42:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dr Vanek
I agree with you if you cannot afford GOOD wormer and/or Vaccins have less dogs.

When I go by Panacur, or Valbazen for the all kennel, Men the bill hurts... but we have to do it...

Dr Vanek may I asked you advices? Our kennel especially race dogs (not talking about small puppies) is wormes monthly with PYRANTEL solution. Then before we go south (december) 3 days of Panacur. then when we come back (february) 3 days Albenzdazole "valbazen" then in May again 3 days PANACUR, somtimes in the summer all race dogs get 0.5cc of Ivomec and septemeber 3 days Valbadazole.
Is this too much or not enough or useless... This year we use DRONCIT because we gae raw fish in Russia but we usually never use it because our dogs never get Game neet or raw fish.

Also We use Lifestock style for wormer and Jacques calculates the dosage for dogs. it does save $$$ for the same products than the "pet" one.

My be this questionis in the wrong forum, but oh well... I figure some other would like to know also.

Magali PHILIP, Nenana, AK
www.noatak.com
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RSmith

USA
3105 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2004 :  4:49:41 PM  Show Profile  Visit RSmith's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I have begun de-worming a LOT more often,and havent done anything but Ivermect/Panacur. I think it was Dr. Dawn Brown(correct me if I'm wrong Dawn) that mentioned she worms a bit more than you would expect.
Also, doesnt worming w/Valbazen too much cause bone marrow supression? I used to use that more, but now have switched to Panacur.
(I found it on the Net for $140.for a POUND.
This will do 40 dogs 3 days in a row(@50mg/kg),THREE times.) I think its a great deal!

Adirondack Kennel
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Sirius

USA
557 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2004 :  10:56:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It costs relatively little to examine your own poop and is kind of fun. An Ovitector kit good for 100 tests costs $62.50. One gallon test solution costs $16. You could make your own of both from sugar, water, and junk. I got my slightly broken but usable microsope for free when the local high school upgraded. Probably because I still use ivermectin, fenbendazole, and pyrantel pamoate on somewhat of a schedule I have never really seen worms except roundworms in puppies and young dogs. My vet helped by occasionally calling me to pick up a postive stool sample. I would call her back and say "hookworms right". I'm suggesting it as a supplement and secondary hobby. I don't expect to identify all the possible parasites but it can be part of a program.
Neil Rasmussen
scatologist
Grand Marais, MN USA

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Cliff Maxfield

USA
2631 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2004 :  09:37:02 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Neil - Where can I find a good parisitology
ID book for canine? The military has a really nice one for their Vet Techs and would love to get one but don't know how.

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Sirius

USA
557 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2004 :  2:36:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In my opinion the best parasitology ID book for canine would be Mushing magazine Issue number 32. The article 'How to do a canine fecal exam' by Rebecca Lee, DVM is very clear, specific to musher kennels, and includes eleven image examples of what to look for and at what magnification.

In my opinion the best parasitology ID book would be Benbrook, E.A. and M.W. Sloss, 'Veterinary Clinical Parasitology' 3rd ed. Iowa State University Press, 1961

If you want to see pretty veterinary clinical parasitology images in general you can see them now:
http://www.cvm.okstate.edu/~users/jcfox/htdocs/clinpara/Index.htm

This is just my poop. I am probably quite out of date.
Neil Rasmussen

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magali

USA
904 Posts

Posted - 06/14/2004 :  10:23:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Neil
Thank you for th link I hve a french old vet book that show the "worms" and it is nice to see what "we are suppose to look at" when we are "digging"!

In France we were using a good wormer for adult dogs called TEMIN KH (mebendazole 100mg) it was very nice but I have hard time finding it in the US.

If any of you know where I ca, find it liquid or tablets please let me know.


Magali PHILIP, Nenana, AK
www.noatak.com
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magali

USA
904 Posts

Posted - 06/14/2004 :  10:24:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry
the name of the wormer is TELMIN KH



Magali PHILIP, Nenana, AK
www.noatak.com
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juice

USA
107 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2004 :  09:44:15 AM  Show Profile  Visit juice's Homepage  Reply with Quote
here's a website about basic deworming based on the companion animal paasite council -- best of all, it's free, i think.

http://www.capcvet.org/downloads/6825CAPC_vend.pdf

Justine Lee, DVM, DACVECC
Emergency Medicine and Critical Care Specialist
University of Minnesota
College of Veterinary Medicine
1365 Gortner Avenue
St Paul, MN 55108
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Dr. Jerry Vanek

149 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2004 :  8:49:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I can see I've got lots of questions to answer, proving once again the limitless creativity of the canine rectum! Unfortunately, I'm off to Wisconsin for a dear friend's wedding, demonstrating once again the agonizing inevitability of the triumph of libido over common sense.
I will return after the weekend with more on albendazole, Panacur, good parasit books, confusing calculations, etc. Just like a lawyer, I charge for my brilliance in six-minute increments, but I do more than just sit there and nod my head empathetically like a psychologist. If your dog is dying right now from parasites, see your veterinarian immediately. Otherwise wait for my return. Happy mushing!

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Dr. Jerry Vanek

149 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2004 :  11:02:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Parasite books: The mushing article mentioned (Vol. 32, May/June, 1993), is a great place to start. It is well-written and illustrated, although I am always suspicious of any doctor who doesn't know the difference between worming and de-worming.

Anyone who is on line to read this can go on line and search for "parasitology books" etc. To save time, the major publishers are WB Saunders, which is part of Elsevier; Mosby; and Blackwell (formerly Iowa State Press).

The best fecal exam book is Sloss and Kemp's Veterinary Clinical Parasitlogy, 6th ed., now edited by Anne Zajac because Drs. Sloss and Kemp are either pushing up daisies or at least circling the drain. It is the lab manual found in every lab in the country and published by Blackwell/Iowa State Press.

The best textbook, with drug dosages and life cycles, to help one break the cycle of reinfection is Georgis' Parasitology for Veterinarians, 8th edition, edited by Dwight Bowman, Randy Lynn, and Mark Eberhard, because Drs. Georgi also are either circling the drain or in that great test tube in the sky. It is published by Saunders/Elsevier.

Another text that isn't bad is William J. Foreyt's Veterinary Parasitology Reference Manual, now in it's 5th edition and published by Blackwell/Iowa State Press. It's sort of a Cliff's Notes Reader's Digest version.

Note that worms don't evolve very fast so an earlier edition of these books for less money will be just as helpful. Amazon.com, etc. may have some very cheap. Also there are disgruntled college students who would pay you to take the damned books off their hands so their nightmares will go away. Happy reading.

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