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 Unexplained loss of motor skills/paralysis
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Rob_Valli

USA
538 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2004 :  09:24:48 AM  Show Profile  Visit Rob_Valli's Homepage  Reply with Quote
vet just called and confirmed a lesion on the dog that was necropsied.... so SNE indeed appears to be the culprit. (I asked not to be told which dog was necropsied because I didn't want either dog put down, let alone cut up.) He noted that it was *very* small and on the right side where it may have affected vision.

...so I think we can rule out anything contagious, although I still think something environmental triggered the onset. It just seems too weird that they would go down within a day or two of each other... that is just too close to be coincidence. And the neighbor dog was an unknown as well.

well, at least I know what it was. Unfortunately it also means Monster, Vegas, Austin, and Bella may yet come down with it... but I guess there is nothing left to do but watch.

In any event, I want to thank all the people who stepped up and came to our aid and offered advice and their condolences.  If anyone has any last questions about the findings that they think would be of any help, I can recontact my vet to get the more detailed version of the results, but as far as I am concerned, this case is now closed... may they rest in peace.



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Rob_Valli

USA
538 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2004 :  7:29:23 PM  Show Profile  Visit Rob_Valli's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Don't be very surprised about them both coming down with the problem within
days of each other.  Litter one - two dogs within a week ( 10 months)
Litter three - two dogs within one month (fifteen months)
Litter 4 - two dogs within a week ( two and a half years)
Litter 6 - two dogs within two weeks (9 months old)

This seems to be a trend, and I do think there may be an environmental
trigger.  A run, a hot week, change in feed?  Who knows.

I think the dog you got from Terry is a good place to start.  Have seen
little to no direct T streeper in the backgrounds of any of the dogs and
the outcrossing to the Hallon stuff will only create "hybrid vigor"  Looks
like a nice dog you got!  Any extra pups let me know!

Now you just sit and wait, just to let you know we once did an MRI on a 7
month old pup and could see lesions in the brain the the dogs lived for
another 6 months before signs started.  Usually the affected pups will show
their signs fairly close together, I think if you get past 3 years you may
be in the clear with those pups.

Once again Rob, very sorry to hear about your kennel, it is a terrible
thing to watch  this disease ravage the brain like it does.  You did all
the right things for the dogs in this case, most folks wouldn't have given
them the chance you did, or bother to find out the problem.

Problem now is that you don't know if Runt of Gypsy are carriers?   (Is
gypsy a littermate to runt?)
If so going to this new dog is the best bet to dilute out the gene a bit.

All the best,
Joe


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magali

USA
904 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2004 :  12:16:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Rob,
like Joe said, it would be WISE to know which one of the parent is carrier... two option, both got the tested or just STERILZE both of them...

We have at home a dog with blue eyes that cannot bred to a Blue eye female other wise you get "problems" on the pups. We know it and only used him with brown eyes females and NEVER had a problem again.

I know your problem is different, I guess it would be my dogs I will just STERILIZE both of them, just to make sure this doesn't happen again to you.

hang in there, you are ONE GOOD DOG MUSHER AND DOG PERSON...




Magali PHILIP, Nenana, AK
www.noatak.com
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huskyaddict

432 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2004 :  11:30:25 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
magali,

I don't think there is a test for this. The only way to guess who is a carrier is to do test breedings to a known carrier. Given that the symptoms may not show until the offspring are adults that isn't very practical either.

I hope that we can get a bloodtest or some kind of phenotype like skin tags for wheezers. It won't happen unless mushers send pedigrees and affected animals to universities like Cornell to be studied.

Amy

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Rob_Valli

USA
538 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2004 :  6:39:55 PM  Show Profile  Visit Rob_Valli's Homepage  Reply with Quote
thank you for the compliment, magali

... yes, from what I understand there is no test. I don't plan on breeding Ginger again because she was late to deliver (which was scary but closely watched by sonogram and resulted in a natural birth.) And Runt obviously is a carrier... that leaves me with Gypsy and Chloe. Chloe isn't a leader and her feet are not great. Gypsy on the other hand was pick of the litter and has always been my best dog overall, and a hard driving leader.... and I have to admit, was successfully bred today to Streeper's 'Egil' , after some discussion with Dr. Wakshlag. Basically, he is 1/4 eurohound, and the rest is Sauderson/ Streeper... all of which is thought to be clean. That leaves me with Gypsy, who is thought to go 4 generations back to attla through the mother's lines (fathers are unknown/misbreedings) ...and her father is a dog named Yogi, of which nothing is known.

so basically it is a risk to breed gypsy, but you know as well as I do its hard to go back 4 or 5 generations and not see a famous dog, but now we cant have Bruce or Attla mixes, so its either go pure hound, which I don't really want to do, or this direction.... or don't do anything this year. But I have to admit this decision to breed the two is a bit of a kneejerk reaction to the death of the pups, but I need some replacements and I may need even more if the other littermates go down. And I hear you when you say, althemore reason to get a different female... but I think a dog like Egil is the right type of dog... I guess we'll have to wait and see at many levels now, but at least now my eyes are wide open

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Rob_Valli

USA
538 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2004 :  6:51:59 PM  Show Profile  Visit Rob_Valli's Homepage  Reply with Quote
additionally, I have been trying to research my dog's pedigrees for about 4 yrs but cant locate the right people to talk to.... high on the list are:

- Dave Schindler and Susan Bailey, Canadian sprinters, supposedly the owners of 'Mist', Gypsy's great grandmother.

-another Canadian sprinter (who owned Gypsy's father 'Yogi') named Dale Thevadore(?) Sivador(?) Thevaduea(?) ...something french? He retired from dogs and sold his kennel to Terry, but Terry never got papers, etc.

Chances are they would remember the dogs. Mist was supposedly a prominant dog in her kennel, and Yogi was nice in harness but a total freak to deal with.... the type of dog you might not remember fondly, but by the same token, one you'd surely never forget

Edited by - Rob_Valli on 06/04/2004 7:01:52 PM
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Rob_Valli

USA
538 Posts

Posted - 06/06/2004 :  12:40:58 PM  Show Profile  Visit Rob_Valli's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Thanks to Karen Ramstead, I was able to get some more information on my pedigree.... and with a little more research, I can follow up on some loose ends.

"Mist was born on 2 AUg 1991. Her mother was Ringer, one of my team dogs.
Her father was Fathead, my best leader ever & the father of most of our
kennel for several years. Ringer was out of Sad, one of Richard Beck's
leaders during the years when he was regularly winning at the Pas &
Yellowknife, who in turn was out of Gareth Wright's Burner (who threw many
good sled dogs) and a Beck bitch named Snappy. That's as far back as I can
go on the mother's side.
Fathead was directly out of Attla's Whitey and one of our bitches named
Willow, who was one of the leaders on our 1986 championship team at the
Pas. Her father was Prince, owned by Larry Tallman. Prince was out of a
Gareth Wright leader ( I never did get the name, but brother to his leader
Rondy) and Queenie, a purebred aurora. Willow's mother was Yumbow, out of
Don Beland's Butch & Spooky.

So, I hope this helps..
Dave S"


...Eddie Streeper is attempting to get me the phone number of Yogi's breeder. If I can fill in the unknowns, maybe someone with a more analytical mind might be able to connect the dots and we might possibly be able get a handle on this?



Edited by - Rob_Valli on 06/06/2004 12:43:28 PM
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Rob_Valli

USA
538 Posts

Posted - 06/06/2004 :  5:57:36 PM  Show Profile  Visit Rob_Valli's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I think I may be on to something... granted, it's thin, but maybe a piece of the puzzle... Joe said “a lot of the dogs we have seen have had Attla's, Grover or Chris prominently in the background [...] Bruce, Chris, Scotty, Freckles etc.”

ok.... this is going to be very confusing to explain (and even worse to understand) but here are some connection points....

Attla’s ‘Coolie’ ‘61 and Simon’s ‘Blue’ ‘59 had Attla’s ‘Scotty’ ‘68 (just mentioned as a carrier).... Attla’s Scotty ‘68 and Gareth’s ‘Peaches’ had Attla’s ‘Whitey’ ‘76... who just happens to be Runt's great, great, great, great grandfather, and my possible connection point...

Now at the same time, ‘Chris’ and ‘Freckles’ are littermates out of Attla’s ‘Rex’ ‘63 and Bill Taylor’s ‘Lonely’ ‘68.... and BTW, Chris and Scotty made Lingo... so if Chris, Freckles AND Scotty are known ‘hot’ dogs, wouldn’t that make Lingo super hot?... and yet a dog that famous wasn't listed as a possible carrier? So my guess it is still upstream in Attla’s kennels... we still need a common dogs between Coolie and Rex, but I can find nothing upstream from there.

No idea how Bruce fits in

...also there is one assumption here: My connection to SNE is through Scotty... because Terry Adkin’s misbreedings comprise most of his pedigree here, there might be Freckles in there for all I know..... but at least one thin connection has been made that makes sense.... maybe if I can find out more about Yogi, it might rule out something from his side.

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Murray McGunigal

Canada
211 Posts

Posted - 06/08/2004 :  10:46:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit Murray McGunigal's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Rob
Are you referring to Dale Thevenot? If so, he lives in my area and i could contact him for you to get any info you may need. let me know

Sand Hill Sled Dogs
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Rob_Valli

USA
538 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2004 :  09:48:17 AM  Show Profile  Visit Rob_Valli's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hello Murray,

Please, any help you can offer would be greatly appreciated.

All I know about the man was his name was Dale and he sold his kennel to Terry
Streeper 5-7 years ago so I think he is now out of dogs.

The dog I'm trying to research is a very shy dog named Yogi '96, seen here:
http://www.dogtec.com/kennel/GetDog.asp?idDog=6238
I think the guy should remember him... I thought he was a nice dog in harness
but a real freak.... it took me 2 yrs to be able to feed him by hand.

If you can find out any info on the dog or man, I'd really appreciate it.

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Rob_Valli

USA
538 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2004 :  10:01:55 AM  Show Profile  Visit Rob_Valli's Homepage  Reply with Quote
That must be the right guy.... there isn't a whole bunch on the web about him, but what there is, points in that direction.

Edited by - Rob_Valli on 06/09/2004 10:07:36 AM
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Rob_Valli

USA
538 Posts

Posted - 06/10/2004 :  3:10:09 PM  Show Profile  Visit Rob_Valli's Homepage  Reply with Quote
ok.... that was him.... Yogi's grandfather, on his mother's side, is Gunner. The grandmother on BOTH sides is a dog named 'Amity', a Danny Bullet(?) dog with Tim White's greyhound lines. The last grandfather, on Yogi's father's side, however, was a dog named 'Blackie'.... and Blackie was a great grandpup out of William, who was out of Scotty.

So I can tie into Scotty (through Whitey or William) on each side of Runt.


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Black Hole

USA
277 Posts

Posted - 06/10/2004 :  5:53:31 PM  Show Profile  Visit Black Hole's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:

and BTW, Chris and Scotty made Lingo... so if Chris, Freckles AND Scotty are known ‘hot’ dogs, wouldn’t that make Lingo super hot?... and yet a dog that famous wasn't listed as a possible carrier?



If Chris and Scotty were both carriers, then statistically they would produce 25% affected pups, 50% carriers, and 25% non-carriers, i.e. clear pups. Lingo could well have been one of those 25% that were clear of the bad genes.

Did you say your Ginger was affected? If so, then she would produce 50% affected and 50% carriers when bred to a carrier.

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Rob_Valli

USA
538 Posts

Posted - 06/10/2004 :  6:25:38 PM  Show Profile  Visit Rob_Valli's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I did originally think Ginger might be affected (that is what sparked this thread) but later, I said I thought I was mistaken.... and since then she seems normal as well as her pups. Basically just the 2 brothers out of Runt have been affected so far.

Re: Lingo
I guess none of the boys were mentioned... Lingo, William and Whitey... Scotty their father was, and Chris and Freckles were. But maybe Chris and Scotty are there because lingo is there? I guess my point is Scotty had to come down by one of the 3 boys and none of the boys were mentioned.... maybe Lingo IS a carrier... maybe only one of the other 2.... I have no idea.... we are starting to talk a long time ago.... 8 generations? And the idea is that Bruce was a carrier and that since he is from another era, it was stronger in him and it blew up? It seems like there has to be more to it than that. People surely have crossed Bruce and Scotty lines before, right? Even back then.

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joca

USA
224 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2004 :  12:39:50 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Rob,

I've reread several of the posts trying to understand if the mode of inheritance has been determined. The posts from Joe suggest it may be sex linked in humans but at present time it is undetermined in alaskans?? Elsewhere I see people referring to recessives ? Sorry to back track but I can't seem to find a clear statement about this.

If it's an autosomal recessive, then BOTH parents would be carriers. If there were affected pups in both litters then both dams are carriers as well as the common sire.

If it's an Dominant trait with incomplete penetrance then only one parent may be the carrier and offspring who are carriers/affected will show varying degrees of the disease, or some may not show any signs at all--that's the tricky second half of the equation--the incomplete penetrance.

Jo


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