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 Unexplained loss of motor skills/paralysis
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Rob_Valli

USA
538 Posts

Posted - 05/28/2004 :  1:25:27 PM  Show Profile  Visit Rob_Valli's Homepage  Reply with Quote
well.... nothing good. He pretty much ruled out lower motor neuron disease (LMND) because reflexes were normal... he said that ruled out most of everything discussed because, as Dr. Lee pointed out, typically the limbs of dogs with LMND are more flacid because its the nerves that aren't working right, not the brain. He also noted diminished menace response, and noted Magicís left eye was worse than the other, and Magic seemed to favor that side... so maybe lesion/right side damage?

... so basically the next step is an MRI. I think it has to be done so that if lesions are apparent, then I think we can rule out toxins or something contagious... also, that neighbor dog (a yr old Bull Mastiff cross) I think came down with the same thing, and that doesnít sit right with me.... maybe there is a chance it is something else.

Also, Joe mentioned, ďIt is incurable, the dogs will never fully
recover, and the only case I saw to recover at all, ended up dying of the disease about 2 years later.Ē This is the part that Iím thinking about now.... I need that MRI.... because Magic seems to still be recovering... maybe not daily, but he never got worse so far, and the dog is a far cry from where he was. At this point, he could be a pet dog (as heís not a threat to himself, others, or Ďthingsí that he might run into) but whether he ever ever run again in harness, or lapse back into paralysis, is unknown. Rowdy is another story. So Iím calling around about MRIís.... I hear CSU in Ft. Collins is into this type of thing. Iím waiting to hear back from them.

What a miserable thing.


Edited by - Rob_Valli on 05/28/2004 1:34:10 PM
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Rob_Valli

USA
538 Posts

Posted - 05/29/2004 :  3:01:42 PM  Show Profile  Visit Rob_Valli's Homepage  Reply with Quote
CSU can do the MRI but I think it is easier to just do it here next week. The specialist said that he sends the report to the head of CSU's-something-department's private office and will get the result weeks faster than through university channels.

Also, my specialist ended up with all the test results, so I cant post the results. I guess we should just wait until the MRI's come back and see what information that yeilds.

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Rob_Valli

USA
538 Posts

Posted - 05/30/2004 :  8:39:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit Rob_Valli's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I had Magic and Rowdy put down, after Magic went into a violent seizure today. One of the dogs will be necropsied to see if there is evidence of SNE. If SNE is confirmed, then, Joe, can you tell me what the chances are of the other 4 littermates getting hit? Ginger appears to be fine. Is there any reason to think I may start to have problems with Runt and her littermates? You suggested I not breed Runt again... should I not attempt to breed any of the dogs in that litter to any male, or just Bruce /or another male 'carrier'? and BTW how did you know that?

... I guess I should just wait until the results are back

Edited by - Rob_Valli on 05/30/2004 10:35:43 PM
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MegC

USA
1321 Posts

Posted - 05/30/2004 :  11:38:40 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Rob, I'm so sorry this is happening to you and your dogs- it must be terrible. But I'm very grateful you're keeping us informed... you never know who you'll help.

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John Wood

USA
353 Posts

Posted - 05/30/2004 :  11:46:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Rob, ditto on Meg's comments. This experience of yours will certainly go down in my "red flag" section of my mind as we have several of our good dogs out of the Bruce line but have never experienced anything like what has happened to you.

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iditarod00

USA
119 Posts

Posted - 05/31/2004 :  12:20:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
sorry to hear of your unfortunate situation rob. having worked with you i know how much care and love you put into your dogs and that you would give everything for there happiness. i hope something good may come of this and wish you all the luck. let me know if you need anything.

casey

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Wyodog

USA
65 Posts

Posted - 05/31/2004 :  08:18:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry to hear you lost two of the dogs, that's rough. Hopefully the necropsy will show something. I lost my leader two weeks ago from "something". CSU is handling the necropsy. He had high fever and dimished motor control with the fever. We stumped the vets at CSU for a diagnosis. The only thing I've heard so far is he had infection in all major organs. I can't count the amount or kinds of anitibiotics they pumped into the dog. The only thing they could come up with is FUO (fever of unknow origin). Keep us posted on results.

Wyodog

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Rob_Valli

USA
538 Posts

Posted - 05/31/2004 :  09:21:01 AM  Show Profile  Visit Rob_Valli's Homepage  Reply with Quote
thank you everyone... yeah, last night was terrible. As some of you know, I dont have many dogs...15 now... but what dogs I do have, I put everything I have into them from the time they are hamster sized, both emotionally and financially.

Back when I first got in dogs, and was handling for Roxy, Charlie saw me playing with their pups and took me aside and cautioned me about getting too attatched. He said, "Sometimes, puppies die. And sometimes... they all die." Shortly after that, we got hit with parvo and lost half the pups. That was my first time dogs were taken from me. The next Spring, when I finally left, I had tears in my eyes until I hit Delta. Same thing happened when I left Dan MacEachen's in CO. I swore then I would either get out of dogs, or get my own, but I would not work again for another musher because I invested too much of myself in their dogs. It seems funny now that I thought owning dogs would somehow protect me from having to give up the pups that I worked so hard to raise. But last night, I had to give up MY pups. MINE. after all the hurdles, after all the cuts, after all that time, I had them put down on their exact birthday. I know this is a part of life in general, and dogs in particular, but it makes it no easier.

... and what's worse is I still have 3 more boys out of that litter and 1 female half littermate... and I look at them everyday, scrutinizing evey step they take, watching for the slightest signs of something wrong. I still don't even know if it is SNE. Maybe my adults are next.

Anyway, I thought it would help to keep you all updated so that others out there that come in contact with this disease, might be able to pinpoint it earlier than I did, and discern it from other more common and reversible ailments.

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huskyaddict

432 Posts

Posted - 05/31/2004 :  2:00:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Could someone tell me the age range for onset of symptoms of SNE? The only ones I am familiar with were not normal at even less than 8 weeks of age. Is it normally not seen until 1 or 2 years? I was discussing this with my sled dog vet and she wonders if it could be related to wheezers, which is also a degenerative nervous condition and runs in one of the same popular bloodlines. Have you considered this? Have you found that both parents of SNE offspring must be carriers? My vet was telling me about an experiment where wheezer pups were produced from only one carrier parent (alaskan bred to irish setter I think?) so it is apparently a pretty complex genetic problem to control. Do you have some idea if it is a condition of variable penetrance/expressivity or possibly sex-linked?

Also, is it possible to view article whose abstract was posted earlier?

Rob, I am so sorry to hear of this. I cannot imagine your grief.

Amy

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Joe Wakshlag

39 Posts

Posted - 05/31/2004 :  4:12:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Rob,

I assumed that Runt and Ginger were littermates and for some reason I had the horrible vision that one of Runt's kids and one of Ginger's kids came down neurologic at the same time which would make them both carriers. After re-reading your post I realized they were two "littermates" fenced off in two areas. Sorry my mistake. In the end Ginger is a carrier and Runt is unknown, but may be a carrier.
hopefully the necropsy will shed some light on your horrible situation. Knowing that they are true littermates with the same symptoms and 2 of 8 pups, then if mendelian genetics follows about 25% will be affected. Just watch the others. I would watch their gait while running this fall, if you notice dogs from that litter having a bit of a see-saw gait, over-extension of the forelimbs, or a hard time with sharp corners, have then them looked at.
Will speak with you on e-mail later.

huskyaddict,

I know of no connection with the wheezers, the other condition you mention where the pups are affected by 8 weeks is much more likely to be associated with the wheezers. Since the basis for both problems is related to the longest nerve tracts in the body not working. The wheezer condition may be a disease with multiple genetic components basically leading to variable penetrance of the disease from line to line. I haven't seen enough wheezers or genetics behind those dogs, to make a truly educated guess as to the mode of inheritance behind it. But I have heard all of the things to look for (skin tags in mouth etc.)

SNE on the other hand we examined for sex linked, which it was not. Seemed like equal numbers affected between males and females. Most dogs were between 7 months to 6 years old before affected. Looked for mitochondrial inheritance (is the reason we began studying the disease, looks like Leigh's disease in children), but was not mitochondrial inheritance (which is strictly maternal inheritance). When we had an affected dog bred to a Greyhound, no pups were affected, many still alive and well (6yrs later).
Have seen somehting very similar in a yorkie too! But I don't think there is any yorkie in the Alaskan background

Things rear their ugly head from time to time, recessive genes are very hard to get rid of.

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huskyaddict

432 Posts

Posted - 05/31/2004 :  4:17:20 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Joe,

Does the "early onset" variety go by a different name? Did I understand correctly that you do not think the early onset is related to the SNE? Are you seeing them from different bloodlines?

Also, could you give an estimate of how many animals/litters with SNE you haves studied?

Thanks,
Amy

Edited by - huskyaddict on 05/31/2004 4:19:29 PM
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John Wood

USA
353 Posts

Posted - 05/31/2004 :  4:44:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Joe, the dogs that you examined from Chuck and Gwen as well as these pups of Rob's all would seem to have been offsprings of Bruce via AI. Have you ever examined or heard of any direct natural offspring of Bruce having the same issues? Is there anything in an AI impregnation or in the drawing and storage of semen, or the multi-year age of the semen that may have been a factor? We have inbred Bruce lines much more tightly than Rob's situation and have never seen anything approaching what has happened here. Our old leader Carat, if not the last litter directly out of Bruce, is probably the last living offspring and she is living the life of leisure at 14 years of age with us.

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Joe Wakshlag

39 Posts

Posted - 05/31/2004 :  5:24:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
John,

In SNE, let me retract my statement a bit. I have seen an inordinate number of dogs bred from Bruce with the disorder, I had made the jump to Bruce, because in two incidences they were doubled up on Bruce in their background, but who isn't. The fact that Rob has bred Bruce via AI, to a female that is not of Bruce lineage (seems to be Attla lineage via Terry Adkins), implicates Bruce as a carrier even more now. Also Chucks dogs were all tightly bred Attla, not Bruce, but I am assuming much of that goes well beyond Bruce, Chris, Scotty, Freckles etc. The best source would be the Reddingtons, Charlie, and George himself to get to the bottom of some of this. The most likely scenario is for a prominent stud to keep the gene alive. Ideally we would be able to go back beyond Bruce (and I think it was Attla's Chris) and find a common dog between the two. I tried my best a few years ago and couldn't come up with the genetics that far back.
As far as AI is concerned, I doubt that that contributes since, a good number of the other breedings were natural.
I can take some of my dogs back to Bruce as well. I think it is really a luck of the draw thing, like your dog Carat may not be a carrier and may have been a main brood bitch for you, so she never passes it on, OR there very well may be other genetic/environmental factors that play into the disease. I am starting to believe this since one dog can be affected at 7 months while others are affected at 6 years. But there really isn't enough known yet. In humans this is a well studied pathology that is often recessive and occasionally mitochondrial, with one x-linked disease that looks similar.

HuskyAddict

I think I am aware of 10 litters that have been affected with SNE, first seen about 9 years ago. May be other seizuring dogs in kennels that were just put down without the work up like Rob is doing.

The early onset disease is different it doesn't have a formal name yet, it is a encephalomyeloneuropathy, or as I call it "Spastic paraparesis of Alaskan Huskies". It is a very different disease, seen as incoordinated pups with bunny hop gait eventailly leading to atrophy of distal muscles and limb deformities by about 16 weeks, they loose motor control of their voices as well due to nerves dying back. Very bizarre disorder seen in about 5 litters now, since 1998.
About all I can tell you about that one.



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PRT

USA
332 Posts

Posted - 06/01/2004 :  12:48:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am curious about encephalomyeloneuropathy. I had a pup that had this type of illness at eight weeks old. I brought him to a neurologist vet clinic Portland, Me. They had little clue as to what was wrong with him. The best quess they had was encephilitus or some form of canine Wooblers. They said they could start a battery of tests which would cost $1500-2000. They weren't sure if he would make through the weekend. I was sent home with steroids and antibiotics. Two days later I was sure he wouldn't make it through the night. The next morning he was bouncing off the walls and hasn't stopped yet. He is four years old now and he leads and his brothers are on my open team. The meds must have been the right combination given at the right time.

BTW, his father is a Zinc-Carat pup named Joey and Joey ran on my open team last season as a ten year old. What an awesome dog.

Paul Therriault
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Rob_Valli

USA
538 Posts

Posted - 06/02/2004 :  6:17:07 PM  Show Profile  Visit Rob_Valli's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I just got back from a trip...

Thank you again, Joe, for spending your time on this.

I did want to clarify something though as far pedigrees and relationships go...

Runt and Ginger are littermates out of a female named Tracey and she supposedly goes back to Atta lines (William and Whitey?) on the mother side. Tracey's father's side is basically unknown but out of Adkins kennel.

Runt and Ginger's father was a dog named Yogi that was bred by Canadian sprinter named Dale Thevadore, or something like that, but I have been unable to find out anything more about guy including his last name. Nothing is known of his parents.

Both Ginger and Runt were bred to Bruce via AI last year... Ginger had 3 healthy pups, and Runt had 6.... 2 of which were Rowdy and Magic. So I would think Runt is the carrier and Ginger is unknown.

Also, besides being bred to Bruce there is no other Bruce in their background... so there was no intentional linebeeding/inbreeding, but, like I said, most of the pedigrees are unknown.

I think the necropsy will be back tomorrow, so I'll post the results when I get them.

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