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 Breeding for "Grande Odyssée" race
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JuBu

Canada
6 Posts

Posted - 03/10/2012 :  5:57:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello, I'm Julien, from France,

I would like to build my own team with the dream to race the "Grande Odyssée" in France. I plan to buy dogs in Canada or Alaska I don't know yet what choice to do for my breeding and what kennels I have to visit. I plan to buy two females for starting and to breed them with a stud.
This is a specific stage race, with 30 000 meters positive change in altitude.

The stages are:
1rst day: 39 miles
2nd day: 49 miles
3rd day: 32 miles
4rth day: 37 miles
5th day: 37 miles
6th day: 31 miles
7th day: 37 miles
8th day: 53 miles
9th day: 50 miles
10th day: 47 miles
11th day: 53 miles

The teams are pretty fast: http://www.grandeodyssee.com/en/478/2012-Edition

Mushers can have 14 dogs for the race and use 8 or 10 dogs per stage.
I need fast dogs, with a good endurance, a good recovery capacity. I also wonder wich size of dogs could be nice for this race.
But there is not a lot of north american mushers competing on this race, so no reference for me.
What bloodlines from which kennels could be good for my project?
Thanks for your advices.

Julien.

jake

USA
1513 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2012 :  07:31:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bon jour Julien!

That sounds like a great race ! I like the length of it instead of 2-3 days ! I wish we had it here.

I would suggest that you contact 'Fast Eddie' on here, Streeper Kennels and go from there.

Enjoy !

You have a great project here !

Jake

Mikado, MI
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RSmith

USA
3034 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2012 :  10:56:44 AM  Show Profile  Visit RSmith's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I'd start with teams that have proven it time and time again in races such as The Pas, Yellowknife, Wyoming Stage Race, etc.

Terry/Buddy Streeper http://www.streeperkennels.com/

The Beck's
http://www.dogtec.com/kennel/brent-beck-s-racing-team/kennel

Hochman

Cook's. http://www.cooksracingkennels.sasktelwebsite.net/index.html

These teams/kennels have consistently dominated ( some more recently than others). Possibly breed in some ohter proven Fur Rondy dogs from Ellis, Kornmuller or Reynolds into the mix too?

These are the first ones to pop into my head, there are others probably.




Roy Smith
Adirondack Kennel
Skandinavian Hounds/Stagsters
http://www.adirondack-kennel.com
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jake

USA
1513 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2012 :  6:40:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Excellent picks all !

I love the format of this race, would love to see it here, US or Canada, or both!

Jake

Mikado, MI
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JuBu

Canada
6 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2012 :  8:40:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for your reply Jake and Roy.

I was interested by E Streeper's kennel but his kennel isn't on my road.

T&B Streeper's kennel is one of my first choice. I'm interested by their dogs because they are Wyoming stage race winners, which I think is one of the most similar race in north America, just shorter. So this dogs should have good recovery qualities. One of their handler told me that they are quite specialized in illimited and I hope they have not only small dogs for sale. I also need strong dogs who can pull the sled in the hill in 8 dog team.

I didn't know Beck's, Hochman's and Cook's kennels, I will study that.

What about Aaron Peck who did good results during the Wyoming race this year?

Here a great video of the race, I can't stop watching it...
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xo05q3_les-belles-images-2012_sport

Thanks again, if you have other ideas, don't hesitate.

Julien
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jake

USA
1513 Posts

Posted - 03/12/2012 :  06:57:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for posting the video Julien, its a great one ! I can see why you want to do it, it looks like a wonderful race !

Keep on keeping on !


Jake

Mikado, MI
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RSmith

USA
3034 Posts

Posted - 03/12/2012 :  08:02:01 AM  Show Profile  Visit RSmith's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Jubu
Heres a couple videos.


Yellowknife, (3) 50 mi.
http://youtu.be/7rCEQvOA3l0


and The Pas (3) 35 mi.
http://youtu.be/fJxYQkgTYjw


Roy Smith
Adirondack Kennel
Skandinavian Hounds/Stagsters
http://www.adirondack-kennel.com

Edited by - RSmith on 03/12/2012 08:03:57 AM
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JuBu

Canada
6 Posts

Posted - 03/12/2012 :  3:15:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks,

I guess Streeper's kennel is one of the best choice I can do. I'm waiting a reply from them.
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jake

USA
1513 Posts

Posted - 03/12/2012 :  7:06:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It is one I would make, along with Becks.

Jake

Mikado, MI
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qw

USA
101 Posts

Posted - 03/13/2012 :  3:37:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Its 11 day race with lots of climbing. I can't imagine they are doing sprint speeds. Throw some Buser or swingley lines in there, you might be happy you have some tougher headed dogs, that can easily do those speeds.
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Indrek

Estonia
63 Posts

Posted - 03/14/2012 :  06:47:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hei Julien!

I know a little about Milos Gondas team.They are pretty houndy but not like Streepers dogs.They are still long distance dogs. The original lines should be Attla and G.wright and etc(all the lines imported to Scandinavia in the 90s).There is also Greenland dog in them as it is very common in Lapland.And lastly mixed that with some houndier lines or even hounds/pointers.
Size vise they are like common Alaskans - range from 45 to 55 pounds.
I would contact Radek or some other top 5 team to get some dogs or atleast get some bloodline info.
These hills there are so heavy that i dont imagine how sprint lines would handle them.This year I heard that on every climb mushers where pushing the sled all the time.Only downhil was the place where you could win time.
Some Scandinavian houndy lines mixed with Busers stuff could be great.

Good luck mate!

Indrek
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JuBu

Canada
6 Posts

Posted - 03/14/2012 :  11:04:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello Indrek and Qw,

Thanks for your advices and for this informations about Milos Gonda's dogs. Yes it's a specific race, so I need specific dogs. I have to find the good balance between speed and endurance/ fast recovery qualities.
That is my fear, I don't know if sprint lines can do great on this race. Streeper's lines won the "Wyoming", and yellowknife, but this is not races where the dogs run at least 30 miles during 11 days.
I've contacted Radek Harvda to know more about his dogs, I'm waiting a reply.
I know one of his female did every stage this year, she looks like a mini pointer: http://www.protrail.info/files/odyssee_09/big/Roxi.jpg
The other dogs of his team, I don't know if this is 2012 team:
http://www.protrail.info/index.php?tra=protrail&fil=team
Here a video where we can see his dogs (this is not the dogs at the beginning of the video):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jq3c78j11Ho br / Some of his dogs looks houndy.

The french guy who finish third this year have dogs who are not houndy at all, who come from Jacques et Magali Philip's Noatak Kennel, Robert Sorlie kennel...

Why do you think Buser's dog could be interesting?
I also like Swingley lines Qw. They did good when Melanie Shirilla was racing the Wyoming. Warren Palfrey use Swingley lines, he's doing good in stage racing. He finished 14th during the Wyoming...

What do you think about the idea to buy frozen semen of Egil Ellis studs like Odin (3/4 Alaskan 1/4 pointer) or Peavey (3/8 pointer) to get some good scandinavian houndy lines?
But I have to find top breeding females who could fit with this guys...
Thanks again for your interest and for your help.
Julien.
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RSmith

USA
3034 Posts

Posted - 03/14/2012 :  2:21:14 PM  Show Profile  Visit RSmith's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Most of those dogs look like Sprint dogs to me.
Definitely of Pointer influence.
You can make a good fast sprint dog slow down and pace but it's hard to make a slow dog go fast.

Roy Smith
Adirondack Kennel
Skandinavian Hounds/Stagsters
http://www.adirondack-kennel.com

Edited by - RSmith on 03/14/2012 2:22:39 PM
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northenough

USA
242 Posts

Posted - 03/14/2012 :  5:37:44 PM  Show Profile  Visit northenough's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Julien,

quote:
I have to find the good balance between speed and endurance/ fast recovery qualities.
Your words. Correct.

Don't fall into the trap, mostly a beginner's one, of thinking that you can cross a couple of lines, even if they are from top notch kennels, and get what you want. Merely to combine some great sprint dogs w/ Iditarod dogs is not good advice. Despite great results in Irod and individual loyalties aside, what stage racing has Buser done? Remember, there is a huge difference in "toughness" between being able to continue to get up at the checkpoints after 700-800 miles and run at 7 or 8 mph and to continue to average 15-17mph for the last 10 miles out of 25 to 40 even if it is in the hills.

Whatever you eventually plan to do, get your wallet out $$$. If you go the route of buying a few breeding dogs, then plan on breeding more than just the first couple litters to get to the top or be competitive, especially if you cross lines. Otherwise, if you just purchase almost the whole team, it will be expensive and will still not yield you a team of the caliber of the Swingley and Streeper Stage Stop teams. There were literally hundreds of puppies that went into selecting those teams. And there were also many, many years experience in breeding and buying/selling/selecting dogs outside of their respective kennels that went into their results. I would also venture a prediction that those teams could go over to the Odyssee and win. There is plenty of comparative results to support this.

I have witnessed more than a handful of wealthy mushers go out and spend, not tens of thousands of US dollars, but hundreds, only to fail to reach even near the top. There have been a couple of such people in my racing region (and maybe even as we speak today), that have thrown a lot of money into getting success. Most just buy dogs, but some try a breeding program. My point is that it takes a lot more than identifying the best dogs and spending money.

The Ellis dogs have their own limitations for stage racing. The word on the street is that Egil would have to totally "re-tool" to go and be competitive at this format. Just ask Terry or Buddy what dominates the influence in the Streeper teams--pointer or Alaskan, in other words, what has contributed the most to the current success? That's what I asked in '04 at the Oregon stage race, Atta Boy. I personally witnessed what went on there, and it was repeated the following years. My advice is to stay away from crossing Iditarod dogs unless you want to spend a lot of money and effort and be experimental. You'd be better off with successful stage racing kennels like Streepers, Phillips, and also Swingley dogs, yes, but there was a lot of diversity there (both strictly Irod dogs and only stage racing dogs).

But what do I know--I'm just an opinionated, incorrigible but thorough purebred guy with over 25 years of breeding and racing experience with sled dogs. The game's the same with mixed breeds, just at another level.

I too wish you luck! I do not want to seem to discourage you.

Mark

P.S.--This sub-forum is getting as good as the purebred one`!

Edited by - northenough on 03/14/2012 5:57:49 PM
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qw

USA
101 Posts

Posted - 03/14/2012 :  7:43:57 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Buser lines have had success in stage racing with aaron peck and others. They are not going to be averaging anywhere near 17 mph hours over 11 days. I don't think they even averaged that in the rondy this year. Looks to me Buddy won wyoming this year in the high 12's, now add five more days of racing. Jessie royer won the the odyssee with the almost the same breeding program northenough suggests not using.
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Indrek

Estonia
63 Posts

Posted - 03/15/2012 :  02:07:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi!
Well i dont know anything about breeding but i was refering more or
less to the roots of Gondas team.I know there are Iditarod dog in there and also hounds of some sort. But the main point for me is that the guy does his tourism business and mid distance races with the same dogs.And seems to do good with them.I got my dog from the breeder who has sold quite many dogs to Gonda and whose dogs(Nicole, Hannalore, Gump) where in Gondas winning team last year.Some body in this forum said that they look like oldschool sprint dogs.
But then again, it has taken 25 years to get there...

Indrek
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