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RSmith

USA
3035 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2012 :  11:28:38 AM  Show Profile  Visit RSmith's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Just had my 1st hybrid outcross litter with the Staghound X Scandinavian Hound (Ellis line).

Has any kennel sucessfully bred a staghound into the sled dog lines?

Tons of greyhound, Saluki, "Lourohound",etc. but is there any staghound crosses out there?


Roy Smith
Adirondack Kennel
Skandinavian Hounds/Stagsters
http://www.adirondack-kennel.com

Edited by - RSmith on 02/16/2012 11:30:44 AM

Theo

USA
1025 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2012 :  3:34:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Historically there has been. It was called a "Targhee hound"
I think the cross happened in wyoming where staghounds were used to hunt coyotes.
This was a stag hound Irish setter cross used in Sprint racing in the 1970s or earlier. I got this infrom from a book by Ray and Lorna Coppinger. I forget which one. I think it was this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Lorna-Coppinger/e/B001ITPL0G

I got it out of the library.



http://sleddogblog.blogspot.com/
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Theo

USA
1025 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2012 :  3:40:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here is a youtube clip of a 1947 newsreel for a Sled dog race in Ashton Idaho, which feateures a team of Targhee hounds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2ho8EoI4HM&feature=player_embedded#!



http://sleddogblog.blogspot.com/
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RSmith

USA
3035 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2012 :  4:25:23 PM  Show Profile  Visit RSmith's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hey Ted
Awesome video thanks.
Gonna borrow it.
That is very interesting that there was no Alaskan bred into, just the stag and Setter.
Setter of course was being used extensively in the cross breeding.


Roy Smith
Adirondack Kennel
Skandinavian Hounds/Stagsters
http://www.adirondack-kennel.com
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Dougskijors

Canada
524 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2012 :  4:25:37 PM  Show Profile  Visit Dougskijors's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Roy - what is the goal? Size?
cheers, Doug
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Jason M

USA
388 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2012 :  5:35:33 PM  Show Profile  Visit Jason M's Homepage  Reply with Quote
just curious where you found a Staghound to breed to? I have looked for them before and haven't had any success locating people with them. I am very interested in how this turns out- keep us posted
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Theo

USA
1025 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2012 :  6:18:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yeah that video is something else!

Here are a couple topics from the archives, might have some info you could glean and names to contact:

http://www.sleddogcentral.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2313

http://www.sleddogcentral.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3170

Ted



http://sleddogblog.blogspot.com/

Edited by - Theo on 02/16/2012 6:22:17 PM
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jake

USA
1513 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2012 :  05:46:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You are referring to the Scottish Deer Hound?

I have often wondered about them, better coats then pointers for sure, and much better sprinters.

I'll be interested in how your crosses do Roy, I should think very well.

Jake

Mikado, MI
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RSmith

USA
3035 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2012 :  07:04:05 AM  Show Profile  Visit RSmith's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I always heard the term "Targhee Hound" back when I started racing but didn't know what it was.
Mine arent technically Targhee's since there is no setter.

Little Guy is from Larry Bull in Jerome, ID and Tina an Ellis leader of mine. I got him just as Larry was selling out.


More info here: http://www.dogtec.com/kennel/adirondack-kennel-scandinavian-hounds/dog/little-guy

Just going to see how far they go and who is going to pull,etc.
Looking for a very leggy dog, full of speed and power that can tear up the trails in Dryland, skijor or short open class racing. That is my goals.

Little Guy has TOUGH feet, very docile and easy learner, highly biddable. He ran at 7 Months old single lead in front of ATV Pulling the entire way 7 miles at AVS +- 39mph and there was not a scratch or rub mark in his pads and he cooled down in less than a minute. Was barely winded.

Larry bred this line for Endurance. He also had a speed line he called them.

Little guy is a 10th Generation Staghound from the Scottish Deerhound, Greyhound and Saluki. Technically that is what he is.
He is also highly inbred so outcrossing should produce consistency on his half of line anyway.

Just from what I have seen with Tina and now what I saw with those Stags in the video, maybe these suckers WILL go open class distance?

PROBLEMS: Not many sled dogs can keep up with him so he gets bored at 18 to 20mph. So, possibly the 1/2's will learn things to pace,etc.




Roy Smith
Adirondack Kennel
Skandinavian Hounds/Stagsters
http://www.adirondack-kennel.com

Edited by - RSmith on 02/17/2012 07:09:13 AM
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JGSperry

194 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2012 :  12:13:40 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Roy,

Your outcrossing is pretty interesting stuff. The video from 1947 was pretty cool (I didn't notice any "traditional" breeds in that vintage footage, interesting) so obviously the stag hounds should be able to do what you are looking for.

Just one thing, I have heard your claim of 7 miles, pulling at 39 mph before, several times, how is anyone supposed to believe that? Say all other dogs are too slow for this dog to run with, you could still run him single skijor and break all world speed records by just standing on your skis. This would be the most valuable sled/ski dog on the planet. How come you haven't sold this wonder dog to some Norwegian skijorer for 20 grand yet? No offense dude, but can anyone take such claims seriously (how ‘bout some go-pro footage to verify your claims)? I'll be the first to eat crow if you can show us.
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RSmith

USA
3035 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2012 :  7:11:34 PM  Show Profile  Visit RSmith's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I know Jason, I thought that was very interesting that I saw virtually no Alaskan "huskier" type dogs but many bird dogs, setters and 'other' stuff in there.
I read that the race was a 20 miler.

LOL at the 7 mile. Not asking anyone to believe it. Just a fact that I witnessed.
In my entire life I have never seen or heard of any dog doing a feat like that, including crosses with African hounds, Chart PUlski's, Borzoi, Greyhound, Saluki's and Pharoah hounds.
Not even sure most HORSES could do that TBO.

Plus, he has only done it once and has lost interest since. I've tried him several times again and in team and he is a phenom for about 3 miles then gets bored. Loose running, different story.
So who's paying $20K for inconsistency and a one time deal? lol


Roy Smith
Adirondack Kennel
Skandinavian Hounds/Stagsters
http://www.adirondack-kennel.com

Edited by - RSmith on 02/18/2012 06:16:15 AM
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smushybanana

USA
554 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2012 :  11:41:37 AM  Show Profile  Visit smushybanana's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I'm curious to see how they turn out! I have a couple sighthound crosses that are amazing, but they were rescues and are fixed. I'd love to find a successful sighthound line to breed into (someday).

Hilary Schwafel
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Theo

USA
1025 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2012 :  12:08:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
To answer Jake's question, a Staghound is basically a mutt of various sight hounds. They are called "lurchers" in England and used to hunt hares legally and to poach deer illegally. They used to hunt deer in the Western US until it became illegal. They are similar to sled dogs in that they are a mixed breed bred only for performance.

It seems plausible to me, that you could get one to go 37 mph for 7 miles. Greyhounds and salukis are capable of 45 mph. Staghounds are bred to hunt like wild animals hunt. So I'm pretty sure something that can chase down and kill a coyote or a jack rabbit is capable of extreme feats of speed and endurance. The Saluki has more endurance than a racing greyhound. Like salukis The staghound is a "long dog" meant to chase something for a long time. Longer than a greyhound. Salukis hunt gazelles and pace themselves for a long time. Not sure how far they go but a lot farther than a few hundred yards. The gazelle is goung to run as long and far as it possibly can.

They cross them with siberian huskies in England and also Border Collies and even pitbulls.

They are surprisingly docile, and not dog agressive.

I think its makes sense that the dog got bored. Chasing down a coyote is a lot more exciting than running for the sake of running. Motivation is the problem with greyhounds. They don't fetch. They aren't all that eager to please. They run due to massive prey drive. If they aren't chasing something they are really lazy.

The extreme physiology and the extreme prey drive have gone hand in hand for thousands of years. The trick is to try and seperate the two. To create a dog with near greyhound speed and greater endurance that runs for a different reason than chasing prey.

The more you outcross for temperamnent, to get the right sled dog temperament the more diluted the extreme speed gets. Thats my opinion on why they were rivaling alaskan huskies in 1947 instead of winning the rivalry and dominating the 60's 70's 80's 90's etc.



http://sleddogblog.blogspot.com/
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jake

USA
1513 Posts

Posted - 02/19/2012 :  07:20:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have friends in Mn and Mt who use Staghounds, and they are Scottish Deerhounds, or crosses, so that is why I was asking.

The preydrive/running drive is an interesting phenomenon, in sled dogs its pretty much resolved.

I am interested in hearing more about your dogs Roy.

Jake

Mikado, MI
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jake

USA
1513 Posts

Posted - 02/19/2012 :  10:31:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Roy

I think that we are all going to be interested in how they prove out, I am quite interested, not for my own end use, I am working more towards slow and powerful, as in freighters/trapline dogs.

But I am very interested in how this breeding works out for you. Do you expect to make any backcrosses to the staghound?

Jake

Mikado, MI
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Jason M

USA
388 Posts

Posted - 02/21/2012 :  8:47:30 PM  Show Profile  Visit Jason M's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jake

I have friends in Mn and Mt who use Staghounds, and they are Scottish Deerhounds, or crosses, so that is why I was asking.

The preydrive/running drive is an interesting phenomenon, in sled dogs its pretty much resolved.

I am interested in hearing more about your dogs Roy.



Jake, Who are your friends in Montana that are using Staghounds? And, what are they using them for? I would like their contact info and like to talk to them as I am very interested in Staghounds...
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