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abamam
USA
280 Posts |
 Posted - 11/05/2009 : 5:44:21 PM
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I'm curious. Have been reading and re-reading some of the information regarding the possible(or maybe probable) realignment of the dog groups by AKC. It looks like all three - Siberians, Malamutes, and Samoyeds are proposed members of the new Nordic group.
My concern is that the Samoyed has a hard enough time being taken seriously as a working dog without being put in a group with Shipperkes and Akitas and a number of other smaller dogs that have even less association with any kind of work. I don't mean to denigrate any other breed. It just seems kind of off-the-cuff to place PART of the working group in another group, yet still leave the working group basically intact...
How do you feel about this change? Do you have any thoughts or comments? Has this been discussed within your breed to your satisfaction? Do you think it matters at all?
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kenhaggett
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2009 : 07:10:40 AM
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| It seems like the AKC classes are much more focused on appearance and origin than working ability, we don't show so it would make very little difference to me. They all do seem to fit into the category of Nordic breed. Most dogs are (or were) working breeds somewhere along the line. The only way for any of them to be taken seriously as a working breed is to be out there working. Actions speak much louder than words or classifications. Just my opinion. |
Ken Haggett
Lake Elmore, Vt.
http://www.peacepupsdogsledding.com |
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abamam
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2009 : 08:33:44 AM
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Here's the proposed "Northern Group":
Group 10: Northern (13) (16)
Akita
Alaskan Malamute
American Eskimo Dog
Chinese Shar-Pei
Chow Chow
Finnish Spitz
Icelandic Sheepdog — Miscellaneous 7/1/08
Keeshond
Norwegian Buhund — Miscellaneous 1/1/07; Full Recognition 1/1/09
Norwegian Lundehund — Miscellaneous 7/1/08
Norwegian Elkhound
Samoyed
Siberian Husky
Schipperke
Shiba Inu
Swedish Vallhund
Leaving the Working group to contain these dogs:
leaving the working group as this:
Group 5: Working (23) (25)
Anatolian Shepherd
Bernese Mountain Dog
Black Russian Terrier
Boxer
Bullmastiff
Cane Corso — Miscellaneous 7/1/08
Dalmatian
Doberman Pinscher
Dogue de Bordeaux
German Pinscher
Giant Schnauzer
Great Dane
Great Pyrenees
Greater Swiss Mountain Dog
Komondor
Kuvasz
Leonberger — Miscellaneous 7/1/08
Mastiff
Neapolitan Mastiff
Newfoundland
Portuguese Water Dog
Rottweiler
Saint Bernard
Standard Schnauzer
Tibetan Mastiff
If you want to see how the Group realignment is looking, go to:
http://www.akc.org/events/conformation/group_realignment.cfm
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THZSteele
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2009 : 10:41:10 AM
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Not sure how I feel about this...for one I've never been a big fan of the AKC...we don't show so it would not affect us.
I run Mals and the Malamute is a working dog as well as a northern breed...maybe they should make a sub-group called Northern working dogs |
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Cliff Maxfield
USA
2438 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2009 : 12:16:50 PM
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AND where are the Airedales? If not Northern then definitely should be listed in the working group and DEFINITELY are qualified sled dogs - tested and proven.
I can produce the info if need be but a recent European Airedale book has a two page center spread of the Airdale Sled dog teams at work in Norway.
What else has AKC missed?? |
Edited by - Cliff Maxfield on 11/06/2009 12:19:47 PM |
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MegC
USA
1258 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2009 : 3:36:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Cliff Maxfield
...What else has AKC missed??
Pretty much everything that matters from what little I can tell. |
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cricket
Canada
508 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 09:27:10 AM
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i wanna see a chow chow team that can keep up
i dont see how a chow can be liste in the working dog catagory along side siberians |
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shore
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 10:16:03 AM
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"Working dog" isn't limited to pulling stuff.
I'm curious: who here has made breeding decisions about their sled dogs based on what the AKC does? |
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Andy R
USA
71 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 12:47:08 PM
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Shore: If you register your dogs with the AKC you are making breeding decisions about your sled dogs based on what the AKC does. Simple as that.. you follow there rules.
Cricket: a working dog works, It is not about which is better or what breed is faster or can "keep up".. Work is work
I and my dogs are not part of the AKC for a lot of reasons, This move being considered just reinforces the reasons to not be.
Curious if AKC Siberian Husky Kennels are going to give up racing or quit the AKC, being the AKC is not classing your dogs as a working animal and is simply a northern breed.
Its a slippery slope will this lead to 2 braches of Siberian Huskies within the AKC.... Hmmmmmm interesting that some say I do not show so it will not affect them? Sure seems it would if you are AKC registering your dogs. Seems the AKC gene pool will be splitting further no ? at some point will it not be that you will be calling the working AKC SH something else...like maybe a Siberian Sleddog ?
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snozilla
USA
411 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 2:17:28 PM
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I'm not understanding the problem with creating a Nordic group.
Isn't it safe to say that most of the nordic breeds are working dogs? Every one of those breeds in that list have solid working backgrounds (except perhaps the American Eskimo Dog).
Like the nordic breeds, almost all terriers are working dogs--would it make more sense to put them in the working group and forsake the terrier group? I'm not "into" showing dogs, but I think it is logical that terriers be judged against terriers, and spitz-type dogs be judged against spitz-type dogs at the group level. Right now Sibes and Samoyeds are judged along with Rottweilers and Komondors at group level.
There is currently a "working group" and a "herding group." Isn't the Samoyed both? Isn't the herding ability of Samoyeds downplayed by them being in the working group?
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Susie Rogan
Canada
591 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 5:20:49 PM
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The American Kennel Club put with 'Working Dogs', is for the most part an oxymoron because success in the AKC has little or nothing to do with success in actually working. It is a beauty contest which destroys breeds, not an organization that promotes and preserves the working traits that the breeds were originally developed to excel at.
I read that the Border Collie competitive association would kick out any members that join the AKC because they are so serious about preserving the intelligence and abilities of the Border Collie. Maybe people with real working dogs in the northern breed should consider the same: Start your own club with real working standards, holding looks irrelevant. |
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hnewman
USA
380 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 6:10:34 PM
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to Shore:
I have AKC Samoyeds and belong to the Samoyed Club of America. And yes, what my breed club SCA and AKC says (rules) has an impact on who I breed. But if my sams do NOT cut it in harness, no matter if they meet the standard and would be amazing "show dogs" I will not breed them.
Working ability and attitude is first with a sound, strong structure.
Darlu: I do not think putting Sams in the Nordic group is going to hurt them--that is just my opinion. Some sams can work but some can not and I think that is the bigger issue people should be worried about. Sams are NOT across the board being tested and I do not mean a herding test or sledding test, but shown they can do the job here in the USA. Samoyeds are Nordic so if they will be judged against other Nordics well may be that is the way it should be. And it is only the dog that takes BOB that will be in group not the rest that competed that day that will be compared to the other Nordic:)
But yes AKC/SCA does have an impact on how I breed and who I breed.
Helen |
Prairie Isle |
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shore
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 08:47:44 AM
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My question wasn't very clear, for which I apologize. Obviously if you've got dogs registered with the AKC and you wish for your pups to be registerable, you've got to breed to other registered dogs. But, I don't know, it seems to me that people worry too much about stuff that really doesn't affect them. I've got Siberians and to be honest I could give a crap if the registry moves the breed into the terrier group or if judges start rewarding dogs with snap tails. We *know* that dogs that don't even meet the standard (for example, dogs that are over-height) can still be registered as purebred. In the meantime there are certainly people who are breeding working Siberians who aren't doing the breed any favors.
Anyway, I can understand why people might not like this at a gut level but I'm having a hard time identifying a practical problem here. |
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Whytepine
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 09:42:29 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by snozilla
Every one of those breeds in that list have solid working backgrounds (except perhaps the American Eskimo Dog).
I've had and bred American Eskimos for 10 years. A friend of mine with working border collies got me started in mushing. You can check out my 'sledding Eskies' here. http://whytepine_eskies.home.mchsi.com/
I breed for the 'working' Eskie...the one's you used to see on the farm that herded the cows or sheep, watched the kids, and chased off coyotes. Eskies even have a circus background and performed by jumping up and riding the white horses around the ring. Some people have started their Eskies in herding events, and even lure coursing which is a sight hound event. They excel at agility. But here again, the Eskies you see participating are the 'old style' slender, flatter coat, finer boned, and quick moving with lots of power. The 'new style' or teddy bear look Eskies just can't keep up. They do better in the conformation ring but are not the original Eskies that developed from the ones the German immigrants brought to this country back in the early 1900's.
UKC has a Northern Group similar to what AKC is doing. We haven't seen any problems with dogs competing in that group since UKC wants the dogs to do what they were bred to do. Although I have seen an influx of AKC people coming into UKC. Some judges pick what I call the "bigger, clunkier" dogs that couldn't do their job without having a heart attack! But UKC also has what is called the Total Dog Award for those dogs that compete in conformation with a certain win and also qualify for a performance event such as weight pulling, obedience, agility, etc.
I do have to say that AKC has ruined more breeds than helped. It's because of judges placing thicker boned dogs with too much coat and massive heads. The border collies and Australian shepherds you see in the ring look like a totally different breed than what you see in performance events. It's going to be up to the breeder as to what they want their dogs to do and look like. I quit showing in all AKC events quite a few years ago now. Just didn't like the 'snotty' attitude of the exhibitors. The general public comes to shows to see a breed they are interested in, only to be shoved aside by breeders hurrying to the ring. Not me! I like to put those people to work by holding my extra dogs and letting them pet and fluff them up and talk to them about the breed. Well...I better quit because I could go on all day! |
Whytepine Eskies |
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shore
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 11:04:12 AM
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| I should add that if I had to guess what's behind this it's that nordic breeds tend not to do well in Group. |
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sallydawson
USA
561 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 8:27:58 PM
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I'll agree with those who say AKC is a beauty contest. But, it has been my experience, at least with airedales, that the judges are (supposed to be) supporting what is set forth in the breed standard, designed by the national breed club. Through our breed club we are able to say yes or no to judges based on how well they support the written standard in what they are putting up for the points.
But problems exist outside of mushing circles as well: there is a pretty large contingent of airedalers who are into hunting/tracking/field events, and have a heck of a hard time being admitted to field trials, because of the "terrier" classification.
Then comes the double coat issue - is an airedale the only "non-northern" breed to have the double coat? (well, northern in that they come from damp/wet/rainey northern England and Scotland - hence the need for the double coat)
Maybe some breeds are just so versitle they defy classification |
Sally J. Dawson and the Mushing'dales
KA8UVQ; "RED HAT" Musher
Live each day as if it is your last |
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AKC Group realignment
