|T O P I C R E V I E W
||Posted - 04/01/2005 : 3:19:46 PM
Could someone, hopefully a vet, weigh in on the question I am about to ask. Is Canine Allwormer as effective as Drontal? It has the same active ingredients as Drontal with one exception, instead of having Febantel like Drontal does, the Canine Allwormer has Oxantel? Also, why can I only find Drontal out of the US. Is it true that Drontal is actually called Drontal Plus in the US? Looking at the active ingredients of Drontal and Drontal Plus, they seem to be the same. Can anyone in the "know" comment on this.
Edited by - sav on 04/01/2005 5:50:14 PM
|15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
||Posted - 10/28/2016 : 6:26:05 PM
Any updates Dr. Jerry Vanek?
||Posted - 02/06/2016 : 01:08:27 AM
If you know of a way to get a message to me off here.
That'll be more respectful to 'sav' who started this thread about drontal.
||Posted - 02/04/2016 : 8:41:18 PM
William - how are you using the WORMWOOD? Just the plain old fragrent/stinkey gray-green leaves? How much, and how are you administering it? Tell all.....please.
||Posted - 02/04/2016 : 8:18:36 PM
Interesting read with all the chemicals and marketing and brain-washing, all for commerce. Thank you Dr Jerry for saying it so eloquently. I, on the other hand, do not have the energy, nor the education, to say it so.
On topic, I spent $380.00 on a generic de-wormer this fall to find that it was 97% Wormwood. Now I just pick it and use that and caribou hide(hair on) like my grand-uncle told me. Works pretty good. Free too. Could've saved myself about 9G's or more over the years.
||Posted - 03/06/2011 : 8:06:57 PM
"we don't give worms to dogs, we deworm them..."
when you weed your garden are you putting weeds in or out and has anybody ever 'de-weeded' a garden?
||Posted - 03/06/2008 : 12:55:07 PM
Wow! While I realize that I am replying to this long after the discussion, I just had to say that Dr. Jerry helped immensely. I have been wondering about individual dewormers and wether or not my dog's dewormer was the best that I could get for them or not. Again, thanks for the help. Everybody on this forum is so helpful and knowledgeable.
||Posted - 02/26/2008 : 10:17:54 PM
Here's a good resource I found (with interesting links).
|Dr. Jerry Vanek
||Posted - 04/04/2005 : 12:04:41 PM
My pleasure. I'm always trying to find usable analogies to help teach things so people can remember and grasp things easily. Sometimes I fail.
Anyway, this morning, while doing laundry, I was looking at the washing machine and it hit me -- the "bleach" cycle always comes AFTER the "wash" cycle. Of course. You can't bleach dirty clothes any more than you can bleach a dirty kennel. I've always known both things, but never thought of them at the same time. Another teaching tool for the future, if I can remember it ten years from now (Half-zeimer's).
Which begs the question: If the fancy new laundry detergents sporting bleach-type "whiteners" in them can circumvent separate bleaching, then can one clean a concrete kennel with the fancy new detergents? I don't know, I'm not a chemist.
I do know that ascarid (round worm) eggs are so tough that the bleach doesn't kill them. It merely removes their sticky outer surfaces so the detergent and mechanical action of water washes them away (to somewhere else where they remain infective). Hopefully, you're brother-in-law's kennel is down hill from you. Ascarid eggs can be kept alive in formalin, hydrochloric acid, and sulfuric acid. And you thought Quest mushers were tough?
Have a great spring breaking puppies.
||Posted - 04/03/2005 : 1:33:29 PM
Once again, thanks a whole lot (personally AND for us ALL) for sharing your advice and professionalism!
I know I have learned a great deal JUST in the past several weeks, after years of 'Controlling' parasites, by the looks of things.
"Heart of the Tug Hill"
|Dr. Jerry Vanek
||Posted - 04/03/2005 : 1:14:59 PM
In addition to the above new posts, here's as good a place as any to reiterate some dosages on fenbendazole and the life cycle of whipworms.
I am responding to two personal e-mails which I think might benefit all.
First, the dosage for fenbendazole (Panacur) is still 50 milligrams for every kilogram of dog weight. At 2.2 lb/KG that translates into 22.7 milligrams per pound of dog weight.
A 22.2% concentration of fenbendazole in its Panacur carrier means there are 222 mg of drug in every gram of Panacur.
So a 50-pound (22.7 KG) dog would need about 1136 mg of fenbendazole. Divided by 222 mg means the dog should get 5 grams of Panacur, which is the recommended dose on the package, which often comes in 5-gram sizes. Give a 50-pound dog the whole 5-gram packet. Every day for three days. Yum! Giving a dog that size a half-teaspoon is underdosing the dog by a third and giving the tougher worms a selective advantage.
However, you can't just treat again in 2 1/2 weeks (2 to 3, depending on the label) if you're treating for whipworms. They take up to three months to develop to adults in the intestine. So, treat again at two months and three months. If you think you want to go after any stray hooks or ascarids, treat at three weeks and again at two months and three months.
The primary reason whipworms are so hard to eradicate is that most pet owners don't do the follow-up treatments at two and three months post initial treatment.
In addition, whipworm eggs really are hardy and almost impossible to kill. Sunlight works, but not if the eggs are underneath the gravel. Bleach is inactivated by organic compounds, so pouring it on the ground is a waste. Even with concrete, the concrete must be washed FIRST, to wash away the organics, soil, skin cells and hair, feces, etc. Then treat the washed concrete with bleach. Sodium borate applied to the ground may work. Possibly lime. But, unlike concrete, which I don't like for musculoskeletal reasons, the ground, even gravel, is dynamic, constantly changing and evolving.
Nothing can beat plenty of sunlight, good drainage and dry soils, high planes of nutrition, insect and vermin control, and scoop, scoop, scoop.
Drugs should be added on top of this cake of husbandry like frosting. The drugs should never be the dough.
|Dr. Jerry Vanek
||Posted - 04/03/2005 : 12:45:02 PM
Errata. Mea culpa. Whilst walking in the woods last night it ocurred to me that my memory failed me when discussing the evolution of Broad-Spectrum anthelmintics in yesterday's post. (Half-zeimer's, again.)
First, I mentioned that Vercom paste was the first broad spectrum de-wormer. I completely forgot about Filaribits Plus. Remember the good old days? That was the daily heartworm preventive (diethylcarbamazine citrate) coupled with oxibendazole to treat for hookworms. The hassle of daily pills is long gone now for the vast majority of pet owners.
Also, I believe I was erroneous in saying that the first Drontals were made with fenbendazole because of the patent control over febantel by Vercom. Drontal and Vercom were manufactured by the same company. Duh! Both incorporated febantel as a response to fenbendazole as found in Panacur, which was more popular originally.
My apologies to any other obsessive-compulsive-abusive-repressive-type-A-anal-retentive-perfectionists out there. Rest assured my poor memory of historical events does not alter what I said about various drug efficacies, however. Which drug kills what bug still stands.
|Dr. Jerry Vanek
||Posted - 04/03/2005 : 12:29:16 PM
You're comparing apples and oranges. I listed Interceptor in the broad category of "Broad Spectrum," but as "some facet of." Interceptor does not kill everything, only some.
Interceptor, unlike any of the Droncit, Drontal, Drontal Plus anthelmintics does NOT kill tapeworms of any kind. For that, you need praziquantel (or fenbendazole for the Taeniid-type tapeworms).
Aside from tapeworms, there are other differences (think lawyerly weasle words) if you read the label carefully. I recall that Interceptor (milbemycin oxime) "prevents" heartworm, "kills" hookworms, and "controls" round worms and whipworms. And, that verbage can change over time with added research.
The different wordings relate to whether or not a specific dewormer kills only adults in the intestine, and/or migrating larvae in the tissues, as well as how infective and resistant the environmental forms are.
I believe milbemycin oxime does kill migrating hookworm larvae in the tissues. In addition to which, hookworm larvae in the environment are very fragile and easily removed, believe it or not. Hence, Interceptor can claim to kill hooks.
On the other hand, ascarid and whip worm eggs are tough as nails and almost can't be killed in the environment. In addition to which, whip worms take two to three months to develop, unlike the hooks and ascarids, which take three weeks. Thus, most people stop treating for whips way too soon. Whips don't have a tissue-migration stage, so if you treat only once with Interceptor, you won't kill all the whips because of the juveniles developing in the intestine over two months. If you give it every month, though, it should be good enough.
I'm not sure milbemycin oxime is very effective against the migrating ascarid larvae in the tissues, coupled with the fact the the juveniles become adults in three weeks, not a month. So, if you treat only once, or once every month, you will be missing a few ascarids which will be adults in the intestines at three weeks, making more eggs for a week before the next monthly treatment. Hence the term "control," which is not the same as kill.
Studies also have shown that milbemycin oxime is not quite as effective in killing either ascarids or hookworms as ivermectin, (at the higher dose lethal to p-glyprotein deficient collie types) or to pyrantel or fenbendazole.
However, pyrantel only kills adult ascarids, so you have to retreat in three weeks. Fenbendazole is only effective in killing migrating larvae if you give it day after day and then only in pregnant bitches. Ivermectin, at the low, Heartguard dose, is not effective against ascarids at all. But, at the high, potentially lethal dose, it's the best choice. Milbemycin falls in the middle because it is safer than high dose ivermectin but not as effective. Not as effective killing adult ascarids as pyrantel, but does kill at least some of the juveniles. It only has to be given once, instead of three days in a row like fendendazole, but, by giving it once a month, instead of every two to three weeks, leaves a window open.
If this stuff was simple you wouldn't need to go to vet school!! You could find in inside a matchbook cover.
Therefore, as I said before, "What parasite are you trying to kill?"
The cost of the drug is the least important parameter.
If you're after tapeworms, you have to use a Droncit-type drug (or Panacur or SafeGuard for "Taeniid" tapeworms only). But, you only have to give it once (AND treat for fleas or lice; or stop feeding mice and bunnies or moose and lemmings to the dogs.)
If you're after whipworms, use a fenbendazole-type, or the high dose of Ivermectin. BUT, you have to treat again two and three MONTHS later and scoop, scoop, scoop.
For ascarids only, heck, even good old-fashioned piperazine (Sergeants) can still work, but I prefer the pyrantels (found in Nemex, or Strongid, or Heartguard-Plus, or Drontal). The fenbendazoles are just as effective but must be given three days in a row. Regardless, treat again between two and three weeks and scoop, scoop, scoop. And, treat all puppies and nursing bitches from two weeks on.
So step one is: What worm am I fighting? Step two is: Which drug is most effective against that worm? Step three is: Can I afford the drug or do I own too many dogs?
||Posted - 04/02/2005 : 10:52:42 PM
So, if I'm faced with a decision between Interceptor (kills whips/tapes/rounds/hooks) at $4.50 per tablet and Drontal plus (also broad spectrum) at $12.00 per tablet, it would seem a no brainer to use the Interceptor. Is one dose of Interceptor effective as a purge dewormer, or, to be effective, do you have to give the Interceptor monthly as directed on the lablel? I'm not looking for heartworm prevention, just a good broad spectrum de-wormer that makes the most economic sense and Drontal plus seems a bit expensive. Why is it recommended to repeat the 3 day Panacur regimen after two weeks?
|Dr. Jerry Vanek
||Posted - 04/02/2005 : 1:29:26 PM
Much of the basics of this are in the archives. So here's the Reader's Digest version first:
Droncit (praziquantel) kills tapeworms.
Drontal (praziquantel and pyrantel) kills tapeworms, ascarids ("round" worms), and hook worms.
Drontal Plus (praziquantel, pyrantel, and fenbendazole) kills tapeworms, ascarids ("round" worms), hook worms, and whip worms.
It's all marketing strategies.
If you give only a benzimidazole (fenbendazole, febantel, etc.), like Panacur, it will kill whip worms in one day, but hook worms and ascarids take three days of treatments. So, if you treat with Panacur, you have to give it three days in a row, unless you are absolutely, positively positive that you're only treating whip worms.
Pyrantel, like Strongid and Nemex, kills only hooks and ascarids in one day, so you only have to give it once. It does not kill whips.
So, by combining pyrantel (in Drontal) with fenbendazole (in Drontal Plus) you only have to treat once, not three days in a row, because the pyrantel kills the hooks and rounds in one day and the fenbendazole kills the whips in one day. (The praziquantel kills the tapes in one day in all three products, regardless.)
Now things get confusing, but fascinating:
Drontal Plus is a great marketing tool designed to keep the dewormer competitive by being "broad spectrum."
Drontal (praziquantal and pyrantel) was the upgrade of simple Droncit (praziquantel only) years ago to compete with Vercom Paste, which was the first major "broad-spoectrum" anthelmintic. Vercom contained praziquantal (tapes) and febantel (ascarids, hooks, and whips). Febantel gets turned into fenbendazole and oxfendazole by the liver.
The problem with Vercom Paste was that you still had to give it three days in a row, like Panacur, to kill the ascarids and rounds. But, it got ALL the tapes, not just the mammallian tapes (Taenia) that Panacur got. (Panacur doesn't kill flea tapeworms).
Vercom was broader spectrum than either Droncit or Panacur, but it still had to be given three days in a row (and it tasted just awful -- cats would get mad as hell when treated, especially by day three!!)
So Droncit, by adding pyrantel, could be marketed as a one-day dewormer that killed all types of tapes, plus ascarids and rounds. Unfortunately, it didn't kill whips. Panacur and Vercom did (but had to be given over three days). The world was not yet perfect.
So Drontal added in fenbendazole initially (instead of febantel, I suppose because of patent laws held by Vercom?). It was called Drontal Plus. Ingenious marketing. Now you could give one pill just one day for tapes, ascarids, rounds, and whips! They nailed the broad spectrum market and blasted the three-day-in-a-row Vercom Paste and Panacur.
Things get even murkier (God bless American free enterprise):
Febantel must not be protected any longer because now Drontal Plus uses it instead of fenbendazole. In addition, pyrantel tartrate is absorbed by the intestines faster than pyrantel pamoate, so many products that used to include the p-pamoate now use p-tartrate.
It gets better:
Even newer is pyrantel emboate, which apparently requires half the dose of the pamoate. AND, Oxantel pamoate got invented, to kill human whip worms, even though its close cousins pyrantel pamoate and p-tartrate don't. Now oxantel is used for canine whips, as well.
These advances have allowed other companies to capitalize on the "broad spectrum" market. Now you can find an "allwormer" with praziquantel, pyrantel emboate, febantel, and/or oxantel, all mixed up in some combination and licensed for tapes, ascarids, hooks, and whips, and all in a one-day treatment.
I suspect Drontal Plus still uses the pyrantel emboate AND good old febantel because it works as well or better than oxantel, OR because they can't get the license because of patent infringment. That may change when the patent expires.
Therefore, I would use either the Drontal Plus, with febantel, or the Allwormer, with the oxantel at this time because I can't find the actual published studies reporting the laboratory effectiveness of febantel against oxantel for whips. Otherwise, the products are the same, in that praziquantel is praziquantel and pyrantel is pyrantel, even though the latter can be absorbed at different rates depending on which analog is used (pamoate, tartrate, emboate). So, read the label.
Oh yes, it gets even better!! Now there's Drontal for Puppies! This product doesn't include praziquantel because of the life cycle of tapeworms -- young puppies can't develop them to adulthood that fast. Drontal for puppies is actually Drontal Plus without the praziquantel (Drontal Minus?? - naw, bad marketing). It contains only febantel and pyrantel embonate for ascarids, hooks, and whips.
With Drontal for Puppies, then, you can treat the same way as if you were using Strongid, except you also are killing whips. However, whips are not a problem in very young puppies. Strongid is good enough.
Broad-spectrum marketing doesn't end here. Heartguard Plus, Interceptor, Sentinel, and Revolution, all employ some facet of the "kill 'em all" anthelmintic strategy now.
Ah, commerce and industry! One spends the first half of one's veterinary career trying to figure out how a product works and the last half trying to figure out why products get invented in the first place.
Oh yes, money.
Print this out, study it, memorize it, then impress the hell out of your local veterinarian!!
And remember, we don't give worms to dogs, we de-worm them, which alone is reason enough why I never prescribe "Allwormer." Drives me absolutely nuts!!
Finally, if you know what specific parasite is affecting your dogs, you don't need to spend the money on a broad spectrum dewormer when a specific anthelmintic will suffice. Why attack something that isn't there? After all, worms aren't weapons of mass destruction.
Good luck and wait a couple of years. This will all change again.
||Posted - 04/01/2005 : 5:56:22 PM
I'm not a vet (as you know) BUt I CAN tell you BOTH drugs are in the broad category of Anthelmintics and Oxantel is a phenol analog of pyrantel which is a bit more effective against whipworms. I do not know if it is MORE effective against rounds and hooks as the Benzimidazoles (febantel,albendazole,oxfendazole,fenbendazole,etc)
"Heart of the Tug Hill"
Edited by - rsmith on 04/01/2005 5:57:25 PM