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T O P I C    R E V I E W
PIPPINS28 Posted - 10/06/2004 : 9:02:33 PM

7   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
husky.bell Posted - 04/30/2013 : 02:40:06 AM
Dear Dr Vanek I think we met in Colesberg South Africa.... My question is if Dectomax is really better against spirocerca lupi here is SA than Ivermectin?
My vet guided me to use it as 0,3ml/10kg body weight. This correct? Also she said Dectomax kills any Colly type dog?
It is a huge thing here in SA when mushers use farm animal products of Bayer on their dogs, even when we research it thoroughly. The authoroties just hate it when a musher becomes self thinking!
Also is Milbitraz good to use on my Siberians against fleas and ticks?
snowhook Posted - 11/14/2007 : 12:54:44 PM
A deviation of the topic - Dr. Vanek, have you heard of any cases of Ivemectin causing temporary blindness in dogs? One of our pet dogs was 'walk into the wall' blind for approximately 10 days. The condition came on quickly and abated over a 36 hour period at the end of ten days. Diagnosis was optic neuritis. The treatment was prednisone eye drops with no guarantee and not much hope for recovery. While researching the dog’s condition we ran across a country vet who asked if we had horses. Turns out, we do and had de-wormed the horses with Ivermectin paste. The theory (poo,pooed by the attending vet) is that the dog ingested Ivermectin by eating her favorite delicacy: horse processed hay.
bike12 Posted - 11/14/2007 : 12:20:45 PM
Thanks for the info on the MDR1 and also de-worming. There is a test now for the MDR1 gene! I still need to do this on my aussies but alot of breeders are routinely testing the parents.
This way you know! here is the link:

I've had vets insist that HeartGuard is ok to give to aussies, it's not, I've always used a different heart worm medicine because of the herding breed issues. The local vet has never seen a death because of heart guard (lots of herding dogs out here)but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened, I had to insist that we not use heart guard for my dogs. Not all vets are aware of these issues.
Alk9friends Posted - 10/23/2007 : 12:32:31 AM
I appreciate you sharing your knowledge Dr Jerry, and I enjoy your humour
Dr. Jerry Vanek Posted - 10/23/2004 : 10:06:19 AM
Well, it's pourng rain outside and my "right-hand man" at the resort, literally broke his right hand last night and can't work for me any more this fall, so I'm sitting here with winter coming and I'm in deep doo doo. For a parasitologist, of course, that feels like home. Anyway I'm grumpy and you're stuck with me.

One of the great things about SDC is that one can go back to the archives and find out all kinds of stuff already written. Ivermectin is no exception and I have already written too much and am disinclined to write much more. But, you know me....

You are all about half right - which is the problem with internet discussions.

First, ivermectin is ivermectin is ivermectin is ivermectin. It doesn't matter if it is used in a chewable tablet, a liquid solution, a paste, or in a double martini with a beer chaser. (Just don't try to inject the chewable tablet through a syringe!)

The important difference is the concentration, and 1.0 % does NOT equal 1.87%. If you are going to play doctor with your own kennel, which I do not oppose by the way, you need to dig out your calculator and do the math!!

Second, whether people use too much ivermectin or not depends on the purpose of the drug as well as the dog's genetics.

Giving 1/4 ml (2500 ug of a 1% solution) to a 55-pound (25 kg) dog is a dose of 100 ug/kg. Giving 1/4 ml to a 44-pound (20 kg) dog is a dose of 125 ug/kg.

Now, if your goal is to prevent heartworm infection (at 6 ug/kg), you are giving 16 to 21 times more ivermectin than needed -- way, way overdosing!

However, if you are attempting to rid your dog of common "round" worms (ascarids actually, as most worms are "round") or of whip worms (which are also round in shape) then you are seriously UNDER-dosing. Ascarids and whips need a dose of around 200 ug/kg, or 1/2 ml of 1% ivermectin per 50-pound (22.7 kg) dog.

And, if your dog has the rare ascarid, Toxascaris leonina (more common in the wolf feces David Mech sent us from Ellesmere Island years ago) then you need to be dosing at 400 ug/kg or 1 ml per 50-pound dog!

For mange, like Scarcoptes and Demodex, even higher dosages and for many days running need to be given.

And don't forget ear mites.

On the other hand, if you are after hookworms alone (they also being round in shape) you can get by with 1/4 ml per 50-pound dog, as adult hooks are more susceptible and can be killed with a 100 ug/kg dose. However, this is a lethal dose for some dogs and a bad choice of dosages because it risks the rare dog's life yet kills only hooks and a few other uncommon pests.

This brings us to the throny issue of ivermectin sensitivity and death, which I already covered. But, since we love to re-invent the wheel, I will address it in more detail which will hopefully bore you all into switching to panacur or simply selling out and taking up golf or bowling, which as near as I can figure doesn't take any deep thinking at all. (Or you could go into politics.)

Certain herding breeds, such as smooth- and rough-coated collies in particular (as well as Aussies and maybe Borders, etc.) can carry a gene called the MDR1 (Multiple Drug Resistance - 1st discovered) gene. It codes for a glycoporotein (sugar plus protein) that is used to make up the cell membranes of blood vessels, kidneys, the liver, and intestines.

The purpose of this special glycoprotein is to pump drugs out of the cells and back into the blood stream. Thus, when a certain drug, like ivermectin, some cancer drugs, and loperamide (Immodium) build up in the cells the glycoprotein pump dumps them back into the blood stream to be carried away, detoxified, and excreted.

Some dogs carry a mutant gene coding for a deformed glycoprotein which can't pump -- the delta-MDR1 gene. If a dog carries a homozygous (pair of) recessive delta-MDR1 genes, the glycoprotein is deformed and the drug cannot be pumped out. The drug accumulates and causes serious side effects, including death.

Thus, as is usually the case, "the dose is the poison". A little drug won't hurt. A lot will.

A homozygous-recessive herding dog (or a husky with enough herding dog genes introduced throughout the bloodlines over the centuries to finally result in a pairing of two carrier parents!) will be susceptible to doses of ivermectin of 50 to 100 ug/kg body weight. At that dose the dog will show signs of anesthetic overdose, such as dilated pupils, drooling, wobbly hind end, drousiness -- think of your last ex-dog handler stumbling out of the Mecca Bar in Fairbanks.

At 200 or more ug/kg body weight the ivermectin will be lethal.

At 6 ug/kg body weight the dog won't notice it. Which is why HeartGuard, etc. is approved for all dogs, even collies. HOWEVER, if you're buying a 1% solution (200 ug/kg) and diluting it down, be careful, the mathematics and responsibility are in your hands.

Some mushers have been using 1% ivermectin "off-label" for years with no trouble. They do the math correctly. Others use products like pyrantel, fenbendazole, febantel, etc. What is important is to know the pros and cons of each drug, and of course, WHAT PARASITES YOUR DOG HAS! Duh!

That's why God made veterinarians (and sent the others down to law school).

Also note, I mentioned Immodium (loperamide) sensitivity with the double-recessive delta-MDR1 gene. I know nothing of the toxicity dosages involved. I will find out eventually. Just know this: if you have a pal with a collie of known ivermectin sensitivity (about 30% or so of collies) you may caution them not to give immodium to the dog for diarrhea. On the other hand, if you have been using Immodium indiscriminantly for your "stress diarrhea" dogs in harness, then the odds are that you should be able to use ivermectin at the higher dosages as well -- no delta-MDR1, double-recessive genes present. But, this is just my hunch. I don't know for sure. Go sue somebody with money.

Finally, we do not "worm" dogs. There is very little value in giving worms to dogs. We "de-worm" dogs. Another gross failing of our educational system. (I'm still trying figure out why anyone would want to put the husk back on an ear or corn. Shouldn't that football team in Nebraska be the "Corn De-huskers?" Or the "Corn Shuckers?" But maybe that wouldn't rhyme for the cheers.) Ah, the things I spend my toilet time contemplating.

Have a great fall training season!

RSmith Posted - 10/09/2004 : 6:12:56 PM
I dont believe the paste is less expensive. The injectible is FAR LESS expensive as I can de-worm a 40 dog kennel 20 Times with 200ml !! You only need a 1/4 of a ml. (on average) MOST PEOPLE WAY OVERDOSE this de-wormer. You have to look up the doses and precautions like you would ANY meds.
Just my two cents.
OH, there isnt anything Wrong with the paste.
I've used it in the past, but it was just too expensive for a 40-dog kenne. MOST places I have seen the 1.87% for between $10 and 12 dollars per tube? Where the Injectable (ONLY need the .27% Swine label) is around $37.00 for 200ml. If you look up the doses in any Veterinary Manual or drug manual You will notice that even the .27% will sufice just FINE.

Adirondack Kennel

Edited by - rsmith on 10/09/2004 6:15:08 PM
dogsled_musher1 Posted - 10/07/2004 : 2:58:28 PM
I use the Ivermectin paste as a wormer. It seems to work good and I haven't had any trouble with it. It does say that it could cause fatalities in dogs, but it hasn't in mine and my mentors use the same thing, and I don't believe they have ever had a problem with it.

Howling Ridge Kennel

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